What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Stratego » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:28 am

They actually DO revere the Western culture even if their representation of it isn't accurate. kind of like some Western romantism of the Samurai culture.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Dobby » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:00 pm

Spider wrote:
Dobby wrote:Israel national news? Not really a source that should be worth anyone's time.

But the difference? Isis wants an Islamic state where anyone that follows any other religion or has any other beliefs will be murdered. Even if you still believe hamas still follows its charter, that says it is possible for people different religions can coexist peacefully (all be it in an Islamic state). A pretty striking difference.

Ultimately it's their interpretations of Islam which hugely differ.


Their interpretations differ, again, in severity. They are both fundamentalists...its just a matter of how hardcore the one is relative to the other. The requirement of an Islamic State is itself the most untenable problem they both face, regardless of the subtleties of how they want to implement it.

As to the charter, the most telling thing is that they are politically unable to change it. Removing the language about destroying Israel would in itself be a defeat and a concession from their point of view, and they cannot do it. There is of course PR value in trying to clean their image up a bit, since as an organization founded to pose an existential threat to Israel, the world can pretty much roll their eyes at them, and should.

If you want something more recent, read the words straight from the mouth of Ismail Haniyeh.


Just wrote a long post then my internet went down. Anyway, a fairer comparison of hamas is to compare it to Likud and the similarities are pretty striking. Both have outright rejected a Palestinian/Israeli state. Hamas wants a an Islamic state, Likud a Jewish state. Both claim other religions can live peacefully within their state (a huge difference to Isis). Some members of both in recent years have made concessions to perhaps recognising the state of the other, but only under certain largely unattainable circumstances. And most intriguing they both rely on each other to survive.

Also both would probably wipe each other off the map if it weren't for international pressure.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Duchifas » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:09 pm

Dobby wrote:
Spider wrote:
Dobby wrote:Israel national news? Not really a source that should be worth anyone's time.

But the difference? Isis wants an Islamic state where anyone that follows any other religion or has any other beliefs will be murdered. Even if you still believe hamas still follows its charter, that says it is possible for people different religions can coexist peacefully (all be it in an Islamic state). A pretty striking difference.

Ultimately it's their interpretations of Islam which hugely differ.


Their interpretations differ, again, in severity. They are both fundamentalists...its just a matter of how hardcore the one is relative to the other. The requirement of an Islamic State is itself the most untenable problem they both face, regardless of the subtleties of how they want to implement it.

As to the charter, the most telling thing is that they are politically unable to change it. Removing the language about destroying Israel would in itself be a defeat and a concession from their point of view, and they cannot do it. There is of course PR value in trying to clean their image up a bit, since as an organization founded to pose an existential threat to Israel, the world can pretty much roll their eyes at them, and should.

If you want something more recent, read the words straight from the mouth of Ismail Haniyeh.


Just wrote a long post then my internet went down. Anyway, a fairer comparison of hamas is to compare it to Likud and the similarities are pretty striking. Both have outright rejected a Palestinian/Israeli state. Hamas wants a an Islamic state, Likud a Jewish state. Both claim other religions can live peacefully within their state (a huge difference to Isis). Some members of both in recent years have made concessions to perhaps recognising the state of the other, but only under certain largely unattainable circumstances. And most intriguing they both rely on each other to survive.

Also both would probably wipe each other off the map if it weren't for international pressure.


Dobby, there already is a 160-page Israel bashing thread on the forum. Would you mind relocating the Likud bashing there please? We are just talking about Hamas and ISIS here, per administrator's preferences. Thanks a million. ^:)^
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Dobby » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:15 pm

Fine there's no similarities. End of thread.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Duchifas » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:59 pm

Emerald wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:
Emerald wrote:as the good arab spokesperson for the rest of the arab world I condemn the actions of ISIS and hamas, though I don't believe they are the same, because the circumstances are different and I feel that the OP is merely trying to make us all feel that Israel's disproportionate killing of Palestinians in Gaza, is somehow akin to American involvement in Iraq and the ISIS problem. They are not, and Israel doesn't win any brownie points for killing civilians just because it compares Hamas to ISIS.


Hi Em, if you don't mind, as a muslim who lives in the west and who has moderate/liberal political views can you tell us about your feelings regarding the concept of removing western imposed nation states in Islamic lands?

Not necessarily by the IS but in the context of Islamic unity and resisting exploitation from the west?

i'm very curious about this subject


honestly, most Arabs love anything westernized. Many don't like the interference in their politics, or support for those who oppress them by the West, but in terms of how many would like to be led, the majority just want a peaceful life, many are very liberal but religion is important in their life and identity, and the issue is that their politics is constantly undermined by the west or Russia in some way.

If you look at Afghanistan, the Taliban was heavily supported by the US against the Russians.
with Iraq the Shia majority sought the support of the US during the first Gulf war but after agreeing to support the Shia fighters, the USA backed off, and it led to their slaughter and demise. The issue it seems is the West butts in creates something then leaves it for nations which aren't capable, to fix it themselves.
The formation of ISIS who are a bunch of psychos was due to the repression many Sunni Muslims felt at the Iraqi government propelled by the USA, but not supported and allowed them to dismiss the strong minority group of Sunni's.
In Palestine you see it more heavily, how the USA supports an occupying force against the Palestinians, and if you do ever get the chance, go and see how Palestinians are like, because they are not some raging extremists, they are placed in a difficult position to fight or to die, especially in Gaza, and this has become the position in many countries.
In Syria, a huge humanitarian crisis has occurred, the british government thinks it's taking a liberal line by not enaging somehow to support the Syrian people and see an end to the Assad brutality, leaving most at odds as to how to deal with that situation.
In Libya, NATO got involved, and it supported the revolution heavily, but after that...support just dwindles. Now I don't believe that the West has to involved itself in everything, infact it's sometimes better it doesn't, but often the West does need to react to support countries, and if it does react to something it needs to see it through, not back off and expect miracles to happen in countries where people don't really even understand what democracy is. where freedom of speech is everyone has something to say and must listen...by force...

but the west is revered in the Arab world, it's looked up to, the majority would probably go there in a heart beat given the opportunity, those who come from the west, or are western, or have western blood in them are seem as something amazing. I get embarrassed by the amount of love and appreciation people have had for me as a british arab when I've been abroad but also here for those who don't quite get the culture. they think you know it all, your opinion is regarded as gospel, and they treat you like royalty.
The extreme religious groups are a minority, and those that succeed only do so under very extreme circumstances, when options and alternatives for something different aren't available.


Emerald, can I ask you a question? The Arabs (and Muslims) made some extremely valuable contribution to science, philosophy, math, astronomy, medicine, etc. That is indisputable.

Do you think the Arabs are responsible for that, or should we just find a way to attribute all of those achievements to the West somehow?

I'm just curious because you kind of go on and on and on about how every ill in the Arab world is created by the West somehow, and the Arabs/Muslims are apparently not responsible for anything bad that ever happens to them. So I'm just wondering if you apply the same standard to achievements? Or are ya'all ok taking credit for those? Let me know. Thanks much.

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Dobby » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:03 pm

Hi there,

there's a 160 page thread of people bashing Israel and Palestine, maybe you should go do some of your Arab bashing in there. This thread is strictly about Hamas and Isis.

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Spider » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:47 am

uebermann wrote:
Which matters a lot, unless we're going to start punishing people for thought crimes. Wanting to commit genocide is a far cry from actually committing genocide (or in the process of doing it).


Which isn't the point I was making at all. The mentality is the similarity. Two guys who think someone needs to get shot still think that even if only one of them has a gun. You're crossing into action, which doesn't signify a difference between the two, but rather a difference between their actions.


Well, I doubt that not necessarily because they wouldn't try, but because the IDF is much better trained and disciplined than the Iraqi military. Israel can hold their own. But we're also just daydreaming here and making assumptions. I am not convinced that Hamas - should they have their own country and Israel no longer occupying - would end up doing the things they claim because if they were to try, they'd have the US and several other countries up in their shit. And that is something they absolutely do not want to have. The US doesn't get involved with ground troops now because we don't need to. If the need came, we would, and then they'd really get their asses handed to them. There's also the Palestinian people, which have largely said they do not want to be at war with Israel. So it could be that Hamas find themselves without a job in quick order if they keep up with the violence.


Again, that's outside of the scope of my comment. "So equipped" would be where they are able to run roughshod over their opposition, whoever that may be. Yes, its a hypothetical.

So all Islamic states are the same? Because none of the material I've been reading about has said that the Palestinian people would start ethnic cleansing, should they have their own country. Maybe you and I get our information from other sources though.


Didn't say they were the the same. Basically, I'm saying they're the *same* because they are both cars, and you are saying they are completely different because they are painted different colors and have different numbers of doors. I'm thinking in terms of the generalities of a creepy fundamentalist state, whereas you seem to be more concerned with the details that distinguish the two. I'm more of a mind to find any religious fundamentalist state completely unacceptable on a humanist level, regardless of the paint job.

I don't agree with your analogy nor observations. When people feel they are backed into a corner, they often say and do stupid shit. I'm not excusing anything Hamas has done, but if nothing else you can't say you don't understand the feeling of the situation there. You are essentially in a huge open air prison with the occupier constantly taking more and more shit from you. At some point you are going to get fed up and say ridiculous things. Whether they are meant or not, I dunno and no one really does unless they were given an opportunity to make good on it. I'm not so sure Hamas would for reasons already stated, but I'll fully admit I could be wrong. But no one will know either way unless that opportunity actually does come about. Until then its all speculation.


Hamas wasn't backed in a corner...Hamas were outsiders. They are a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They came to Gaza to set up shop under the same aegis.

Sympathy for the Palestinian people isn't the same as sympathy for Hamas. I view Hamas as Public Enemy Number Two where the Palestinians are concerned, behind Israel.

I could go on and on about this but there's really no point. I personally don't think Hamas would be able to make good on their claims, whether they wanted to or not. I don't disagree that Hamas is bad for the Palestinian people and a 2 state solution but just saying "We want to wipe Israelis from the earth" carries little actual threat when they can't make good on it. As opposed to ISIS whom is just beheading and shooting everyone in sight and is winning military battles daily. They are actively showing they can and will do it.

Again, big difference between claiming you will do something and actually doing it.


Which is why I distinguish between the two in terms of magnitude and capability, as opposed to basic philosophy. Hamas is a less insane, less hard line, and less murderous militaristic right wing fundie group...but a militaristic fundie group they still are.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Spider » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:51 am

Dobby wrote:
Spider wrote:
Dobby wrote:Israel national news? Not really a source that should be worth anyone's time.

But the difference? Isis wants an Islamic state where anyone that follows any other religion or has any other beliefs will be murdered. Even if you still believe hamas still follows its charter, that says it is possible for people different religions can coexist peacefully (all be it in an Islamic state). A pretty striking difference.

Ultimately it's their interpretations of Islam which hugely differ.


Their interpretations differ, again, in severity. They are both fundamentalists...its just a matter of how hardcore the one is relative to the other. The requirement of an Islamic State is itself the most untenable problem they both face, regardless of the subtleties of how they want to implement it.

As to the charter, the most telling thing is that they are politically unable to change it. Removing the language about destroying Israel would in itself be a defeat and a concession from their point of view, and they cannot do it. There is of course PR value in trying to clean their image up a bit, since as an organization founded to pose an existential threat to Israel, the world can pretty much roll their eyes at them, and should.

If you want something more recent, read the words straight from the mouth of Ismail Haniyeh.


Just wrote a long post then my internet went down. Anyway, a fairer comparison of hamas is to compare it to Likud and the similarities are pretty striking. Both have outright rejected a Palestinian/Israeli state. Hamas wants a an Islamic state, Likud a Jewish state. Both claim other religions can live peacefully within their state (a huge difference to Isis). Some members of both in recent years have made concessions to perhaps recognising the state of the other, but only under certain largely unattainable circumstances. And most intriguing they both rely on each other to survive.

Also both would probably wipe each other off the map if it weren't for international pressure.


Nice post. A fair comparison.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby uebermann » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:20 am

Spider wrote:Which isn't the point I was making at all. The mentality is the similarity. Two guys who think someone needs to get shot still think that even if only one of them has a gun. You're crossing into action, which doesn't signify a difference between the two, but rather a difference between their actions.


Wha? Firstly, just because that isn't the point you are making doesn't mean its invalid. Its like two people shouting that they are going to kill someone and then one does it and you are saying both are just as bad for the thought in the first place. Actions matter. You cannot just look at two groups and say that they are similar simply because of ideals alone. Hamas talks shit all the time, just like North Korea. How often has North Korea made good on any of their claims of going to war with us after training exercises? Because they are "saber rattling", that makes them guilty of doing the act? No sir. Hamas cannot make good on their claims of wiping Israel from the face of the earth, just like North Korea can't make good on claims.

Again, that's outside of the scope of my comment. "So equipped" would be where they are able to run roughshod over their opposition, whoever that may be. Yes, its a hypothetical.


Its more than just a hypothetical. You are completely ignoring anything else other than "ok if they magically got a bunch of guns and a country of their own and trained soldiers..." You do realize what it would take to get to that point, right? Things would probably change drastically for them to get to the position of actually being able to invade Israel and gain ground there. I have a hard time believing they would still hold the same beliefs should they find themselves in that situation since, as I mentioned in previous post, it would put them under the thumb of the US and others and that is something they don't want to do. Especially since they DO currently garner a lot of sympathy from those same countries.

Didn't say they were the the same. Basically, I'm saying they're the *same* because they are both cars, and you are saying they are completely different because they are painted different colors and have different numbers of doors. I'm thinking in terms of the generalities of a creepy fundamentalist state, whereas you seem to be more concerned with the details that distinguish the two. I'm more of a mind to find any religious fundamentalist state completely unacceptable on a humanist level, regardless of the paint job.


Ok well, be that as it may, there's a huge difference between a Jalopy and a Ferrari. You can't just say "well a car is a car" and call it a day. There's a huge difference between an Islamic state that would allow other faiths to practice in (relative) peace and one that intends to kill everyone that doesn't follow their faith. The US and Zimbabwe are both countries so they are similar, right? Not even close to the same in terms of relations, actions, laws, etc so other than the fact that both are countries, pretty much nothing else is even ballpark.

Hamas wasn't backed in a corner...Hamas were outsiders.


Yes, which is why I was referencing the Palestinian people - my fault if that wasn't clear. Hamas says stupid shit because its what the people want to hear (or so the belief is). Its like when the Republicans get on TV here and say stupid shit. The people they are speaking to want to hear the inane bullshit they spout and eat it up by the gallon. Again, its not to excuse what horrible things Hamas has done, but if they were going to lose power, I think they'd suddenly find a new tune to sing. If they start singing a new tune now, their supporters are going to think they don't have the resolve to fight Israel and that would put them out of power most likely.

Which is why I distinguish between the two in terms of magnitude and capability, as opposed to basic philosophy. Hamas is a less insane, less hard line, and less murderous militaristic right wing fundie group...but a militaristic fundie group they still are.


Thats the thing though. If they were out there killing other Palestinians by the thousands in the manner in which ISIS is in Iraq, I'd agree 100% that Hamas is just like ISIS. However, they aren't doing that. I simply don't think its accurate to say Hamas is just like ISIS when that clearly isn't the case on any front other than "wishes and wants".
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Duchifas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:30 am

uebermann wrote:
Which is why I distinguish between the two in terms of magnitude and capability, as opposed to basic philosophy. Hamas is a less insane, less hard line, and less murderous militaristic right wing fundie group...but a militaristic fundie group they still are.


Thats the thing though. If they were out there killing other Palestinians by the thousands in the manner in which ISIS is in Iraq, I'd agree 100% that Hamas is just like ISIS. However, they aren't doing that. I simply don't think its accurate to say Hamas is just like ISIS when that clearly isn't the case on any front other than "wishes and wants".


The fact that Hamas has killed hundreds of Jews in the last few decades by blowing up buses and cafes doesn't bother you? The fact that they would have happily butchered thousands and thousands more Jews (but for the Jews stopping them) isn't in your mind the same as killing large numbers of Palestinians?
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