What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Duchifas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:57 pm

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Dobby » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:27 pm

This guy could watch the IDF commit another Nanking in Gaza city and try to justify it. Not even worth debating, in the same way it's not worth debating with Islamic fundamentalists.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Duchifas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:16 pm

Dobby wrote:This guy could watch the IDF commit another Nanking in Gaza city and try to justify it. Not even worth debating, in the same way it's not worth debating with Islamic fundamentalists.


From what I've seen here, I don't know that YOU would have anything to debate with Islamic fundamentalists. I doubt they have more ardent apologists than you.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Dobby » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:21 pm

By all means quote anything I've said that makes me an apologist for Islamic fundamentalists.
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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:36 pm

"Israel shouldn't commit war crimes."

"LOOK AT HIM DEFENDING ISIS AND APOLOGIZING FOR HAMAS. SICKENING."

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Spider » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:57 pm

uebermann wrote:
Spider wrote:Which isn't the point I was making at all. The mentality is the similarity. Two guys who think someone needs to get shot still think that even if only one of them has a gun. You're crossing into action, which doesn't signify a difference between the two, but rather a difference between their actions.


Wha? Firstly, just because that isn't the point you are making doesn't mean its invalid. Its like two people shouting that they are going to kill someone and then one does it and you are saying both are just as bad for the thought in the first place. Actions matter. You cannot just look at two groups and say that they are similar simply because of ideals alone. Hamas talks shit all the time, just like North Korea. How often has North Korea made good on any of their claims of going to war with us after training exercises? Because they are "saber rattling", that makes them guilty of doing the act? No sir. Hamas cannot make good on their claims of wiping Israel from the face of the earth, just like North Korea can't make good on claims.

Again, that's outside of the scope of my comment. "So equipped" would be where they are able to run roughshod over their opposition, whoever that may be. Yes, its a hypothetical.


Its more than just a hypothetical. You are completely ignoring anything else other than "ok if they magically got a bunch of guns and a country of their own and trained soldiers..." You do realize what it would take to get to that point, right? Things would probably change drastically for them to get to the position of actually being able to invade Israel and gain ground there. I have a hard time believing they would still hold the same beliefs should they find themselves in that situation since, as I mentioned in previous post, it would put them under the thumb of the US and others and that is something they don't want to do. Especially since they DO currently garner a lot of sympathy from those same countries.

Didn't say they were the the same. Basically, I'm saying they're the *same* because they are both cars, and you are saying they are completely different because they are painted different colors and have different numbers of doors. I'm thinking in terms of the generalities of a creepy fundamentalist state, whereas you seem to be more concerned with the details that distinguish the two. I'm more of a mind to find any religious fundamentalist state completely unacceptable on a humanist level, regardless of the paint job.


Ok well, be that as it may, there's a huge difference between a Jalopy and a Ferrari. You can't just say "well a car is a car" and call it a day. There's a huge difference between an Islamic state that would allow other faiths to practice in (relative) peace and one that intends to kill everyone that doesn't follow their faith. The US and Zimbabwe are both countries so they are similar, right? Not even close to the same in terms of relations, actions, laws, etc so other than the fact that both are countries, pretty much nothing else is even ballpark.

Hamas wasn't backed in a corner...Hamas were outsiders.


Yes, which is why I was referencing the Palestinian people - my fault if that wasn't clear. Hamas says stupid shit because its what the people want to hear (or so the belief is). Its like when the Republicans get on TV here and say stupid shit. The people they are speaking to want to hear the inane bullshit they spout and eat it up by the gallon. Again, its not to excuse what horrible things Hamas has done, but if they were going to lose power, I think they'd suddenly find a new tune to sing. If they start singing a new tune now, their supporters are going to think they don't have the resolve to fight Israel and that would put them out of power most likely.

Which is why I distinguish between the two in terms of magnitude and capability, as opposed to basic philosophy. Hamas is a less insane, less hard line, and less murderous militaristic right wing fundie group...but a militaristic fundie group they still are.


Thats the thing though. If they were out there killing other Palestinians by the thousands in the manner in which ISIS is in Iraq, I'd agree 100% that Hamas is just like ISIS. However, they aren't doing that. I simply don't think its accurate to say Hamas is just like ISIS when that clearly isn't the case on any front other than "wishes and wants".


Gah. Sorry I'm too burned out on this shit to go through it point by point anymore.

Basically, the problem here is that you are characterizing my position as being that Hamas and IS are identical. That has never been what I said. They are both flavors of crazy militant religious fundamentalism. Yes, I know there are individual characteristics that distinguish them from one another. But at the end of the day, the overriding characteristic that defines both groups isn't the specifics of who they are killing and why, its that they are both militant fundamentalist nutjobs.

Israel beating up on Gaza does not make Hamas more defensible. They are deeply f**k up, and fundamentally so, and Israel does nothing to change that. I feel like that's what's going on here. Like somehow they get a pass for their nuttiness because of what Israel is doing. Doesn't work that way, at least in my view. If they had the capability to do it, they'd be setting up the Islamic Palestinian State of Fundiness in a similar vein to what IS is doing. No, they obviously aren't as hardcore shitty as IS (which has been central to my opinion from my first post in this thread), but they are still shitty regardless, and for the same basic reasons.
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Onward to Mars

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Re: What is the difference between ISIS and Hamas.

Postby Spider » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:02 pm

Saracen wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:If Hamas is the same because they kill Israelis then the IDF is also the same for killing Palestinians, see how that works?


B-b-but, don't you get it? Hamas iz ebal! Ebal, ai tellz yoo! Eeeebal!


They are evil. Anyone, anywhere in the world, who wants to set up a fundamentalist religious state is evil, IMO. It is simply indefensible, and wrong. Its antithetical to basic liberty, human rights, and humanism in general. It is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the most disgusting, vile, and flatly immoral philosophies that humanity has come up with.

Evil feels like a silly word, usually. But when it comes to things like Israel's settlement policy of the last several decades, or the establishment of right wing religious fundie governments, I can't think of a better description.
Ernest Shackleton: "Men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful, honor and recognition in case of success."

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