Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforcement?

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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby Southern Dad » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:55 pm

spacemonkey wrote:Just think, they could invent a car that knows where it is and the speed limit there. If you exceed that, your car turns you in. **==


My vehicle's GPS knows the speed limit and my current speed. My car's OBD-II knows my current speed. Why can't the vehicle keep the speed under the posted limit?
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby exploited » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:44 pm

Saz wrote:
exploited wrote:Not at all. You are pointing out how discretion fails and then using it as proof that discretion is preferable. Honestly one of the most retarded arguments ever made.


I'm saying every decision to bring charges inherently will have discretion built in. The illegality of an act is subjective. it only becomes objective when a court has convicted someone. So prior to that conviction, any determination of illegality will be a subjective and not an objective one. Meaning, you cannot have an objective standard with regard to bringing charges. This means that there is inherently going to be some discretion in the system, precisely because it is subjective.


I was wrong.

That is the most retarded post made in PCF2015, not your previous candidate.

All law is subjective. All decisions are subjective. You cannot make something objective when all of it's parts are subjective. There is no "objective" illegality - if there was, we wouldn't need courts or written law. We'd just "know."

My suggestion is that if police have evidence that a crime has been committed, they ought to press charges and have a trial, regardless of any other consideration. Yes, doing this is subjective, just like it is if you allow cops to not press charges when they have evidence. At no point does anything become objective, regardless of what decision is made.

(And here I become dizzy at the idea of an Ivy League lawyer arguing that cops shouldn't charge people when they have evidence because it is "subjective." I mean wtf did they teach you nothing? And then to argue that the only way of getting objectivity is through a trial, which you've argued shouldn't occur for subjective reasons? Holy f**k it's hard to even think of you as belonging to the same species.)
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby Saz » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:45 pm

You sound upset. It's cool if you don't understand the difference between subjective and objective, many people don't.

Example: You are an idiot. That's my subjective view. But I have objectively called you an idiot. Look at that, a subjective statement CAN lead to an objective statement!

You can subjectively think something is illegal. But when a court says something's illegal, that's objective, because the court is the one with the inherent power to define what objectively the law is. You are innocent until proven guilty.
Pun intended for the plebes on here who don't get a joke
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby exploited » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Saz wrote:You sound upset. It's cool if you don't understand the difference between subjective and objective, many people don't.

Example: You are an idiot. That's my subjective view. But I have objectively called you an idiot. Look at that, a subjective statement CAN lead to an objective statement!

You can subjectively think something is illegal. But when a court says something's illegal, that's objective, because the court is the one with the inherent power to define what objectively the law is. You are innocent until proven guilty.


Oh god this is so f**k stupid :))

1. The people with the inherent power to decide what the law is aren't judges, but politicians. They write the laws. Those laws are then enforced by cops. Those cops then charge people based upon evidence and suspicion of a crime, and the courts then evaluate the evidence to decide guilty or innocent. At no point does a judge "decide" the law - he decides if it has been broken, yes, but this isn't objective, nor does it make murder legal when somebody isn't convicted of it. From time to time a judge may overturn a law because it conflicts with another, higher law - but again that isn't him "deciding" the law, it is him enforcing it.

2. Innocent until proven guilty isn't impacted by cops charging people, otherwise you could never arrest anyone due to the "subjectivity" of any cops suspicions. But again you are an idiot and can't understand that objectivity doesn't exist.

3. Your middle paragraph is a lame attempt to be insulting. But more than that it utterly destroys your own argument. Like really badly. Embarrassingly so. If noting that evidence clearly exists that the Canadian government broke the law is subjective, then so to is your comment. After all the objective statement is that you called me an idiot. The only way to prove that is to examine evidence. Which is exactly what the viewer does by hearing and seeing your comments. Now who should examine the evidence that the Canadian government broke the law - I KNOW, HOW ABOUT THE COURTS?!

4. I hope we're done here. Because damn.
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby gla22 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:58 pm

If you drive in any major city you have to break the law just to get around. Laws are broken frequently and often out of necessity. Total enforcement is a complete impossibility. Society would completely crumble under the financial and logistical complexity of having the entire populace either waiting for a court date or involved in the system of scheduling, managing, judging, and policing the other half of society.
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby exploited » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:02 pm

gla22 wrote:If you drive in any major city you have to break the law just to get around. Laws are broken frequently and often out of necessity. Total enforcement is a complete impossibility. Society would completely crumble under the financial and logistical complexity of having the entire populace either waiting for a court date or involved in the system of scheduling, managing, judging, and policing the other half of society.


Total enforcement isn't possible, nor is that what is being proposed. I'm just saying that cops should charge you if they have evidence of a crime, regardless of your social status.
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Re: Which is better: legal discretion or automatic enforceme

Postby spacemonkey » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:41 am

If everyone just obeyed the rules/law all the time, and never question anything. We would still be subjects of the British Empire. Needless to say, they didn't. **==
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