The rise and decline of great powers

Items of historical significance.

Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby Spider » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:28 pm

broken robot wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
broken robot wrote:The US was built up from the transatlantic slave trade, it's a myth to think it came out of the steadfast work ethic of New England puritan society.


gonna have to disagree with you there. the slave trade and slavery were a big part of the creation and development of the United States, but by the time of the Civil War those Anglo-German Yankees "Puritan-types" had become a bigger part. It's why they won the war.

Those were the folks who build modern America, not the Southern-Planters. (although I still think we have latter-day Planters f**k with our nice-things.)


The north may have began industrializing based on its own circumstances, but fact of the matter is that the US economy was based on slavery up until it became a block to the further expansion of industrial capitalism. What I was really responding to though is not the relative weight of slavery, just the myth the previous poster promoted that "we" did it on our own (and again here I'm assuming he meant a mythical belief in self-reliant puritan society up in Massachusetts or something).


The US economy was based on slavery back when we were agro exporters. The balance was already pretty well shifted to manufacturing and trade, as opposed to cotton, even prior to the civil war.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby eynon81 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:35 pm

broken robot wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
broken robot wrote:The US was built up from the transatlantic slave trade, it's a myth to think it came out of the steadfast work ethic of New England puritan society.


gonna have to disagree with you there. the slave trade and slavery were a big part of the creation and development of the United States, but by the time of the Civil War those Anglo-German Yankees "Puritan-types" had become a bigger part. It's why they won the war.

Those were the folks who build modern America, not the Southern-Planters. (although I still think we have latter-day Planters f**k with our nice-things.)


The north may have began industrializing based on its own circumstances, but fact of the matter is that the US economy was based on slavery up until it became a block to the further expansion of industrial capitalism. What I was really responding to though is not the relative weight of slavery, just the myth the previous poster promoted that "we" did it on our own (and again here I'm assuming he meant a mythical belief in self-reliant puritan society up in Massachusetts or something).


there's a grain of truth to the myth...the New England Yeomanry laid the foundations for much of our economy but more importantly out attitudes and culture. Those old Yankees expanded into the Midwest and West more than any other group, and influenced the cultural development of those regions to a great extent.


Also the US during the early 19th century was one of the first places in the modern era where most people got to keep most of what they earned (yes the slaves were a major exception, but the slave-economy was competing against the general economy from about the 1790s onward).
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby eynon81 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:41 pm

Spider wrote:The US economy was based on slavery back when we were agro exporters. The balance was already pretty well shifted to manufacturing and trade, as opposed to cotton, even prior to the civil war.


there was some connection via fianceirs and speculators in New York but in the decades leading up the civil war the Planters were doing everything in their power to hinder the growth of the "Yankee" economy.

it's why we didn't get the home-stead act and transcontinental railroad until after the Planters had been crushed.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:51 pm

eynon81 wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:This is what built the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_ ... of_capital


a lot easier to say...middle-class farmers, business owners, and cheap labor.


The capital they use to enable that production originally comes from the harvesting of accumulated primeval capital built through thousands of years of humanities collective production activities. It takes thousands of years to create sustainable agricultural land, which is why our method of creating farms on naturally arable land and then migrating west when it was played out resulted in the dust bowl.

So imperialism is going to a weaker people and taking what their civilization or culture built over thousands of years, which generally leaves the natives in abject poverty and no way to possibly rebuild what is taken. It takes thousands of years to transform the earth into a form that is friendly to human habitation so no individual that exists currently can rightfully say that their own production equals what wealth they possess.

What accumulated primative capital we didn't take from indigenes, was taken from imperialism overseas and from slavery.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby Spider » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:01 pm

OK. So. Other than sending our ill gotten paychecks back through time to Mesopotamia, and feeling really bad because we are living now as opposed to then...what is the practical application of that?
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby eynon81 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:04 pm

The Dharma Bum wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:This is what built the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_ ... of_capital


a lot easier to say...middle-class farmers, business owners, and cheap labor.


The capital they use to enable that production originally comes from the harvesting of accumulated primeval capital built through thousands of years of humanities collective production activities. It takes thousands of years to create sustainable agricultural land, which is why our method of creating farms on naturally arable land and then migrating west when it was played out resulted in the dust bowl.

So imperialism is going to a weaker people and taking what their civilization or culture built over thousands of years, which generally leaves the natives in abject poverty and no way to possibly rebuild what is taken. It takes thousands of years to transform the earth into a form that is friendly to human habitation so no individual that exists currently can rightfully say that their own production equals what wealth they possess.

What accumulated primative capital we didn't take from indigenes, was taken from imperialism overseas and from slavery.


the dust bowl was the result of attempting to farm the arid high-plains. areas east of the Mississippi river really didn't experience it.

and while it's true that many eastern tribes farmed it wasn't nearly on the scale of the later home-steaders, many who cleared forest to start their farms.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby broken robot » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Non and spider: I don't think we're disagreeing. If you look back I was responding to a comment that made it appear as if "we" (???) did it all on our own. Clearly whatever the relative weight you attribute to slavery is irrelevant or dependent on some larger analysis (my understanding of us history begins and ends with high school). The point though is it was an important factor to the foundation of the country. I think we can all agree on that, right?
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby spacemonkey » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:29 pm

America was pretty much built from every immigrint that managed to get here from day one. slaves and native Indians even had contributions. The decline of our empire was inevitible due to the concept of finite anyway. However the results of nafta just put it on the fast track to fail.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:24 pm

eynon81 wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:This is what built the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_ ... of_capital


a lot easier to say...middle-class farmers, business owners, and cheap labor.


The capital they use to enable that production originally comes from the harvesting of accumulated primeval capital built through thousands of years of humanities collective production activities. It takes thousands of years to create sustainable agricultural land, which is why our method of creating farms on naturally arable land and then migrating west when it was played out resulted in the dust bowl.

So imperialism is going to a weaker people and taking what their civilization or culture built over thousands of years, which generally leaves the natives in abject poverty and no way to possibly rebuild what is taken. It takes thousands of years to transform the earth into a form that is friendly to human habitation so no individual that exists currently can rightfully say that their own production equals what wealth they possess.

What accumulated primative capital we didn't take from indigenes, was taken from imperialism overseas and from slavery.


the dust bowl was the result of attempting to farm the arid high-plains. areas east of the Mississippi river really didn't experience it.

and while it's true that many eastern tribes farmed it wasn't nearly on the scale of the later home-steaders, many who cleared forest to start their farms.

It was the result of planting on rich river deltas etc and stripping them before moving on instead of building sustainable agriculture techniques.

And the indigenous population managed their forests extensively, which is why there was abundant game to hunt for their food. If you think we came here and there was nothing because the inhabitants were ignorant savages you couldn't be more wrong. The truth is our ancestors didn't know what they were looking at before they destroyed it. (yet we copied their idea for a constitution to guarantee an egalitarian society.)

The US was almost predicated entirely on the taking of accumulated primitive capital, not "yankee ingenuity" or a "protestant work ethic". Those concepts are cultural myths.

That is an undeniable fact.
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Re: The rise and decline of great powers

Postby Spider » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:21 pm

Not to sound like a broken record man...but seriously. You really gotta realize that you can't transmute your opinions into facts simply by typing them into a web browser.

And honestly...who in the hell is on this site that thinks like you just described? Do you really believe anyone here thinks the Amerind peoples were "ignorant savages"?

For crying out loud...where do you get this crap? And why are you directing it at us? Its really offensive. :|
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