Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby Charai » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:19 am

I don't think the soviets would have responded if we nuked China. Stalin isn't stupid and the last thing he wants is another 50 million soviets dying. Although, the same could be said for America, which is ultimatley why we didn't attack.

But there is no way Stalin goes to war with the US over the nuking of China. In fact, he almost certainly would have invaded china himself to grab as much buffer room as he could before bumping up against UN forces.

China on the other hand would be pissed as all hell. A devestating nuclear attack against china would not have been the end of the chinese communist party, especially because the russians would fiercly and overtly back them against nationislt forces.

Ultimatley, instead of having a war against china over north korea, we would have a huge proxy war with the soviets over china. In the long run, that's not good for global stabilioty and makes it significantly more likely a hot war touches off eventually.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby stripe66506 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:26 am

Mr.Bill wrote:eah, I've said that forever.. IMO WWI never really ended.. WWII was just a continuation.. I forget his name but in 1919 at Versailles after seeing the terms of the treaty a French Diplomat said in 20 years we'll be at war with Germany again.. He was off by only a few months..

That said that still doesn't excuse Stalin land grabs.. He was most certainly involved in WWII before Barbarossa. And of his own doing.


Well...In all honesty I think we in the West are quick to forget the context of those times. And completely ignore the actions of Poland. Stalin's polices made perfect sense when you look at the whole picture. The map of Europe was drawn in a messy way after the First World War it put the Russian Empire and Germany at a disadvantage. (Notice how both of those countries were left out of the negotiation process prior to the end of The Great War.) Poland started a war with Soviet Russia to expand eastward as much as possible taking parts of Belarus and Ukraine. Poland also sucked up parts of Czechoslovakia at the same time as the Germany when Hitler demanded and got the Sudetenland. Poland also had its border clashes with Czechoslovakia in the aftermath of the First World War. (Again seeking expansion as Poland wished to be a major power in the region.)

Finland was a part of the Russian Empire prior to the Revolution and when it gained independence its border was dangerously close to Saint-Petersburg (Leningrad) and the Baltic States were also under the Russian Empire. The "land grab" against Finland moved the border on Leningrad enough for the Soviets to actually defend the city when the big war actually did come. The lands taken from Poland were simply what were originally ceded to Belarus and Ukraine to being with. The Baltic States are a whole different matter in my opinion.

Poland was simply the loser in a game that everyone was playing. In fact, Poland has signed its own non-aggression pact with Hitler prior to their invasion. Many within the quasi-fascist government of Poland were hoping for a joint Polish-Nazi attack on the USSR. (With Poland hoping to snatch up parts of Ukraine and Belarus.)
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby The Comrade » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:11 pm

Charai wrote:I don't think the soviets would have responded if we nuked China. Stalin isn't stupid and the last thing he wants is another 50 million soviets dying. Although, the same could be said for America, which is ultimatley why we didn't attack.

But there is no way Stalin goes to war with the US over the nuking of China. In fact, he almost certainly would have invaded china himself to grab as much buffer room as he could before bumping up against UN forces.

China on the other hand would be pissed as all hell. A devestating nuclear attack against china would not have been the end of the chinese communist party, especially because the russians would fiercly and overtly back them against nationislt forces.

Ultimatley, instead of having a war against china over north korea, we would have a huge proxy war with the soviets over china. In the long run, that's not good for global stabilioty and makes it significantly more likely a hot war touches off eventually.


stalin was incredibly stupid and ideologically blind.

have you ever read early soviet history?
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby stripe66506 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:39 pm

The Comrade wrote:Stalin was incredibly stupid and ideologically blind.

have you ever read early soviet history?


Stalin was neither.
There’s a reason why even today he is listed in the Top five of all time Heroes in Russian polls.

Pyotr Stolypin, pre-Revolutionary statesman - 426,300
Alexander Nevsky, medieval warrior prince - 418,200
Alexander Pushkin, poet - 397,100 votes
Joseph Stalin, Soviet dictator - 397,000
Vladimir Lenin, Revolutionary leader - 342,400

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7798497.stm
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby The Comrade » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:11 pm

yes the single worst leader of the soviet union was great because of opinion polls.

no. stalin was a fool. an ideological fool.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby Charai » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:16 pm

To be fair, When Stalin took power Russia was an agrarian backwater, and by the time he died it was a superpower. A sick sick man no doubt, but he was not stupid.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby The Comrade » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:50 pm

it was a superpower because years of failed agricultural ideas spurred on by ideology killed millions and a war for the literal survival of the state forced rapid industrialization.


let's not pretend that stalin took power and through his genius he vastly improved the state. you're aware his ideological bullshit almost cost him the war, right? disappearing officers in the middle of losing the invasion because he disliked their ideas or how ideologically pure they were. constantly attempting to tell zhukov was the correct course of action on the battlefield.

the guy was a blundering idiot with a lot of tanks.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby stripe66506 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:15 pm

The Comrade wrote:yes the single worst leader of the soviet union was great because of opinion polls.

no. stalin was a fool. an ideological fool.


Not because of opinion polls but because of the advancements under his rule. The man was a tyrant, undemocratic, petty, and a psychophant (personality cult) but not a fool.

When I went to Russia I noticed that the majority of the infastructure (many roads, metro, water systems, etc.) were built during the Stalin years. Not to mention that when he died the USSR was the #2 superpower a major difference from the backwards agrarian society he inherrited.

When you look at Stalin within the context of Russian history it makes sense that such a phenomenon as Stalinism was possible. Take Peter the Great, he modernized the country using brutal methods as did Ivan the Terrible. It's only within the last few decades that Russia has managed to be more democratic. And even now, people I spoke with expressed doubts about Democracy as we now it and spoke of the need for a strong leader and state. It may be another half century before these attitudes change.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby The Comrade » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:29 pm

and america was a floundering first world power that only dragged itself out of the gutter because of world war 2. we were on the express lane to becoming another argentina.

the same is true of the USSR. stalin only pulled russia out of the 19th century because of the necessity of hitler's invasion, and the inertia of that military buildup and industrialization carried the USSR along until his death, where more capable leaders took over. the war was the best thing that happened to the USSR.
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Re: Should we have attacked China head on in the Korean War?

Postby stripe66506 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:36 pm

The Comrade wrote:it was a superpower because years of failed agricultural ideas spurred on by ideology killed millions and a war for the literal survival of the state forced rapid industrialization.


How would all of these failures create a super power? The reforms worked but at a terrible cost. Basically the USSR did in 30 years what the West did over a couple hundred years. The cost tremendous...but then again I'm glad they had a modern economy when then Nazis invaded or else the USSR would've been over-taken faster than France.


let's not pretend that stalin took power and through his genius he vastly improved the state. you're aware his ideological bullshit almost cost him the war, right? disappearing officers in the middle of losing the invasion because he disliked their ideas or how ideologically pure they were. constantly attempting to tell zhukov was the correct course of action on the battlefield.


More like he got rid of the incompetent ones, not because of their politics. Hell, they even pulled the competent though politically unreliable officers out of the gulag to fight in the war. Not true about Zhukov, unlike Hitler he let his generals do their work without much interference.

the guy was a blundering idiot with a lot of tanks.


Ok, if you want to believe that an idiot using failed policies can muster the man-power and resources to win in such a dire situation you’re free to do so. Doesn’t change a thing about how the majority of those left who lived through it feel about those years.
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