Tax Reform

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Spider » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:18 pm

John Galt wrote:God you're dense. What part of "decades" don't you understand? Postmodernism was not from conservative thought, conservatives adopted it. Same with debt spending. Jesus Christ conservatives have long railed against the state spending so much. Liberals poopoo it and say that you can't run a country like a household: debt doesn't matter. What do you even expect to happen



Can't read, Galt? What's wrong? I just told you, you've got it inverted. The republicans started driving insane deficits clear back in the 80's when Republican Jesus tripled the debt. And they've not slowed down once since. They decided that deficits don't matter, and have been pissing away trillions on tax cuts for my entire life. Which actually does encompass decades.

Fiscal responsibility has nothing to do with the Republican party this century nor the last part of the last one.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:31 am

George the elder was responsible - have to give him that one.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Spider » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:08 am

Kane wrote:George the elder was responsible - have to give him that one.


And we sent him packing for it.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:31 am

Spider wrote:
John Galt wrote:God you're dense. What part of "decades" don't you understand? Postmodernism was not from conservative thought, conservatives adopted it. Same with debt spending. Jesus Christ conservatives have long railed against the state spending so much. Liberals poopoo it and say that you can't run a country like a household: debt doesn't matter. What do you even expect to happen



Can't read, Galt? What's wrong? I just told you, you've got it inverted. The republicans started driving insane deficits clear back in the 80's when Republican Jesus tripled the debt. And they've not slowed down once since. They decided that deficits don't matter, and have been pissing away trillions on tax cuts for my entire life. Which actually does encompass decades.

Fiscal responsibility has nothing to do with the Republican party this century nor the last part of the last one.


again, decades.

the only time we've had surpluses this century or last, republicans have controlled the congress. most of past 120 years have been marked by democrats spending on what conservatives would find to be a bunch of shit outside of constitutional and moral mandates for government. recently, the GOP has indeed used the tactics the democrats invented and decided to have cake and eat it too in regards to spending wildly. they probably suspect -- not entirely wrongly -- that democrats are just trying to punish those who have earned money to support their base of "welfare queens", which of course is dogwhistling to use the term but the point is that Dems are taking from Peter to pay all these Toms, Dicks, and Harrys. now republicans are trying to support both their hick--methhead--holy-roller base who need benefits as well as the bankrollers who want lower taxes -- they are doing the same thing. and it's just rich to hear some liberals complain about fiscal responsibility

this is of course fueled by stuff like fox news. i don't disagree that facts are irrelevant for them, but the fact of the matter is the US lost its mind in the 60s and we haven't recovered. again, the GOP worked with a bunch of liberal nonsense and ends up eroding all of our institutions because truth doesn't matter truthiness matters.

i think it's completely impossible to have a rational discussion about it. consaervatives will say that government does too much, it needs to be cut anyway, and this will starve them so it's okay. but we'll never have a public discussion about the purposes of government and what should and shouldn't be paid for, what is important to spend money and what can go the wayside. i'm not in favor of high taxation, i'm in favor of fiscal management that includes cutting things that are not necessary.

let's start at A. Agriculture. end. f**k. subsidies. did you know we have a "foreign agriculture service"? i thought not. also. we shouldn't. but we never have that discussion. and we won't. we generally have arguments over reducing taxes or over whether or not to institute a program, not on the merits of continuing it or not.

i sincerely believe constitutional reform is the major thing that is needed. not only can we spell out what we want our federal government to clearly do, we can also talk about ways to stop hardening of views and instead return to meeting in the middle. the main way to accomplish this, in my view, is changing the house from districts to something that looks more like the Bundestag and use the Webster Method to elect by parties across each state. the major problem with gerrymandering frankly is really that the seats become solid and therefore the only challenge is in the primary which forces politicians to pander more and more to their base, instead of debating the other side. this eliminates it entirely, which in turn would bring some goddamn sanity
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:04 am

Then they need to make current reforms revenue neutral - for reals. Instead we have this shit;

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 8ff4502fe3

Delaying the corporate tax rate cut until 2019.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publicat ... s-act/full

Aften ten years the "reform" would net virtually no change in after tax income for those making less than $55,000. On top of that, a full 25% of tax filers would see a tax increase relative to current law by 2027.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:06 am

This bill is just so garbage. Removing the one time deduction for adopting a child? That saves the US $300 million? That's worth this?
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 pm

last time there was reform it took years. its complicated and should take compromise. you're only calling it shit because they are trying to ram through the latest iteration or whatever
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:29 pm

Well yeah, it goes directly to your point regarding any conversation about what government programs should stay and what should go. There is no discussion under way, the most specific reasoning given by the GOP for the need of this tax reform bill is that they'll lose their donors if they don't get it passed. Lindsay Graham said exactly that.

That's a good enough reason for me to object to this bill in its totality because it appears to be as slipshod as the way in which it's being pushed through congress.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Saz » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:47 pm

John Galt wrote:last time there was reform it took years. its complicated and should take compromise. you're only calling it shit because they are trying to ram through the latest iteration or whatever



its shit man.

grad student tax going to blow out STEM

Punitively targeting blue states

1.5 Trillion hole in the budget

There are dozens of other reasons but its still shit. Shareholders do not need a tax cut. The market is at record levels, companies are sitting on record levels of cash, debt has never been cheaper. This is just dumb.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Spider » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:14 pm

John Galt wrote:
again, decades.


Again, I know. As I said.

the only time we've had surpluses this century or last, republicans have controlled the congress. most of past 120 years have been marked by democrats spending on what conservatives would find to be a bunch of shit outside of constitutional and moral mandates for government. recently, the GOP has indeed used the tactics the democrats invented and decided to have cake and eat it too in regards to spending wildly. they probably suspect -- not entirely wrongly -- that democrats are just trying to punish those who have earned money to support their base of "welfare queens", which of course is dogwhistling to use the term but the point is that Dems are taking from Peter to pay all these Toms, Dicks, and Harrys. now republicans are trying to support both their hick--methhead--holy-roller base who need benefits as well as the bankrollers who want lower taxes -- they are doing the same thing. and it's just rich to hear some liberals complain about fiscal responsibility


As you know, most of that is stereotyping, but after decades of Republicans blowing trillions on tax cuts and senseless warfare with zero shits given about deficits and debt, it's just rich to see some conservatives still trying to claim the GOP being even a halfway decent example of fiscual responsibility.

Besides...you know it's cherry picking to try to correlate this stuff with congress...when the executive has to actually sign it. We blame the administration when it's convenient, or blame the congress when it's convenient...but there is very little consistency. I mean, look at this complete f**k...all three branches of government in pocket, coasting in on a solid economy that's been in the works for years, and they still screw up this needless tax reform process beyond any rationality.

this is of course fueled by stuff like fox news. i don't disagree that facts are irrelevant for them, but the fact of the matter is the US lost its mind in the 60s and we haven't recovered. again, the GOP worked with a bunch of liberal nonsense and ends up eroding all of our institutions because truth doesn't matter truthiness matters.


Most of the institutions they are f**k up were built by liberals. Not that it matters. It's social programming...look at people on this board. Look at spacemonkey, gremlin, the wonder twins. It's all "liberals" this or "libtards" that. They've been so completely programmed into this us vs them mentality that even though the actual truth simply must be known by both parties, at leas the basics of it....they continue on as if they are unaware and stick with the ideology shit.

i think it's completely impossible to have a rational discussion about it. consaervatives will say that government does too much, it needs to be cut anyway, and this will starve them so it's okay. but we'll never have a public discussion about the purposes of government and what should and shouldn't be paid for, what is important to spend money and what can go the wayside. i'm not in favor of high taxation, i'm in favor of fiscal management that includes cutting things that are not necessary.


Agreed.

let's start at A. Agriculture. end. f**k. subsidies.


Agreed.

did you know we have a "foreign agriculture service"?

Yep. Been covered here several times iirc. It's not exactly a secret.

i thought not.

You thought wrong. Not an easy mistake to make, this.

also. we shouldn't. but we never have that discussion. and we won't. we generally have arguments over reducing taxes or over whether or not to institute a program, not on the merits of continuing it or not.

i sincerely believe constitutional reform is the major thing that is needed. not only can we spell out what we want our federal government to clearly do, we can also talk about ways to stop hardening of views and instead return to meeting in the middle. the main way to accomplish this, in my view, is changing the house from districts to something that looks more like the Bundestag and use the Webster Method to elect by parties across each state. the major problem with gerrymandering frankly is really that the seats become solid and therefore the only challenge is in the primary which forces politicians to pander more and more to their base, instead of debating the other side. this eliminates it entirely, which in turn would bring some goddamn sanity


I guess I'm too much a pragmatist to actually believe in the possibility of a constitutional amendment. I mean...look at DC right now. All three branches of government in hand and an easily led buffoon in the Oval Office...and still, failure, failure, failure. A year of nothing. (Thank God). Can you even imagine this gaggle getting a constitutional ammendment of that sort of scope through? I can't. I don't believe we are even capable of ammending the consitution in any meaningful way for the forseeable future. Politicians on social media combined with the shift left and right respectively of our parties combined with the shifting global power structure has left the US running in circles banging it's head on the walls. For years.

I think we all realize that there has to be reform...just as we know it won't be allowed to happen unless it perfectly fits into the ideologically pure playbook of one party or the other. We can't even ban bump stocks, Galt. Remember how optimistic you were about that?
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