Tax Reform

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Saz » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:40 am

John Galt wrote:
Kane wrote:Sigh.


most people don't itemize. and i'm fine with eliminating CPA jobs by getting rid of such things. i'm totally okay with that, even if it costs me a little. but this also means that it's going to help out people who don't get a CPA at all. it's going to help out poor people because they probably don't itemize shit. it's going to help out anyone who's dual income is less than 90k a lot, especially if no itemization happens. like i said, i was itemizing 21k before (versus standard deduction of 6k) and now it's maybe 13k itemized deduction vs 12k standard deduction

it's going to hurt single people who are high middle class and above, so yeah, it hurts me. but i'm willing to take the hit, so long as other things are met. i'd not only like the keeping of the estate tax, but actually an expansion of it so more wealth is inherited by the people. bumping the top to at least 40% would be good too


Yes but this ignores the 1.7 TRILLION deficit. Ultimately this will end up being paid for by government austerity, which will destroy the poor and middle class when their benefits get cut, when government salaries are frozen, and when federal funding for basics like education are cut, forcing people to pay out of pocket.

The tax reform is premised on the laughably wrong premise that returning more to shareholders and business owners will stimulate growth. This has been proven ass backward time and time again, and the LAST people who need a tax cut right now are shareholders. Lack of investment is driven by lack of demand and investment opportunity, not lack of capital due to over-taxation or over regulation.
Pun intended for the plebes on here who don't get a joke

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby spacemonkey » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:20 pm

Market saturation. They almost had a cow when flat screen TV's and smartphone sales started to level off. Finite world, finite markets. I really don't know why they don't get that or have it as part of their equations. It seems their still stuck on the illusion of never ending perpetual growth. Same for immigration into America, its not an infinite source of opportunity for all who come here. As for the debt and tax, their almost better off filing bankruptcy and starting over.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:23 pm

Saz wrote:
John Galt wrote:
Kane wrote:Sigh.


most people don't itemize. and i'm fine with eliminating CPA jobs by getting rid of such things. i'm totally okay with that, even if it costs me a little. but this also means that it's going to help out people who don't get a CPA at all. it's going to help out poor people because they probably don't itemize shit. it's going to help out anyone who's dual income is less than 90k a lot, especially if no itemization happens. like i said, i was itemizing 21k before (versus standard deduction of 6k) and now it's maybe 13k itemized deduction vs 12k standard deduction

it's going to hurt single people who are high middle class and above, so yeah, it hurts me. but i'm willing to take the hit, so long as other things are met. i'd not only like the keeping of the estate tax, but actually an expansion of it so more wealth is inherited by the people. bumping the top to at least 40% would be good too


Yes but this ignores the 1.7 TRILLION deficit. Ultimately this will end up being paid for by government austerity, which will destroy the poor and middle class when their benefits get cut, when government salaries are frozen, and when federal funding for basics like education are cut, forcing people to pay out of pocket.

The tax reform is premised on the laughably wrong premise that returning more to shareholders and business owners will stimulate growth. This has been proven ass backward time and time again, and the LAST people who need a tax cut right now are shareholders. Lack of investment is driven by lack of demand and investment opportunity, not lack of capital due to over-taxation or over regulation.


It's starve the beast strategery.

Ultimately I think some form of this is going to pass after the message sent to the GOP today. If they don't get this done 2018 will be a slaughter.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby John Galt » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 pm

Liberals: truth is relative. There is no objective space which to judge

GOP: I think we can work with this

Liberals: deficit spending doesn't matter

GOP: I think we can work with this

For decades liberals have been saying this absolute garbage. At least they got the GOP to take them at their word
Americans learn only from catastrophe and not from experience. -- Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby ToddStarnes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:48 pm

Saz wrote:
John Galt wrote:
Kane wrote:Sigh.


most people don't itemize. and i'm fine with eliminating CPA jobs by getting rid of such things. i'm totally okay with that, even if it costs me a little. but this also means that it's going to help out people who don't get a CPA at all. it's going to help out poor people because they probably don't itemize shit. it's going to help out anyone who's dual income is less than 90k a lot, especially if no itemization happens. like i said, i was itemizing 21k before (versus standard deduction of 6k) and now it's maybe 13k itemized deduction vs 12k standard deduction

it's going to hurt single people who are high middle class and above, so yeah, it hurts me. but i'm willing to take the hit, so long as other things are met. i'd not only like the keeping of the estate tax, but actually an expansion of it so more wealth is inherited by the people. bumping the top to at least 40% would be good too


Yes but this ignores the 1.7 TRILLION deficit. Ultimately this will end up being paid for by government austerity, which will destroy the poor and middle class when their benefits get cut, when government salaries are frozen, and when federal funding for basics like education are cut, forcing people to pay out of pocket.

The tax reform is premised on the laughably wrong premise that returning more to shareholders and business owners will stimulate growth. This has been proven ass backward time and time again, and the LAST people who need a tax cut right now are shareholders. Lack of investment is driven by lack of demand and investment opportunity, not lack of capital due to over-taxation or over regulation.

Explain a capital surplus resulting in stagnastion to spacemonkey.

That's the task of properly explaining to the average voter why GOP tax "reform" is useless.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:42 pm

John Galt wrote:Liberals: truth is relative. There is no objective space which to judge

GOP: I think we can work with this

Liberals: deficit spending doesn't matter

GOP: I think we can work with this

For decades liberals have been saying this absolute garbage. At least they got the GOP to take them at their word


By wielding deficit spending when it's utterly unnecessary and utilizing it a fashion that's least able to address current economic imbalances?
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Spider » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:49 pm

John Galt wrote:GOP: truth is relative. There is no objective space which to judge (See "alternative facts" and Fox News and basically every conservative outlet or commentator right down to the guy on the street ranting about "fake news".)

Liberals: I think we can work with this

GOP: deficit spending doesn't matter (Nobody drives deficits like Republicans, for reasons already covered.)

Liberals: I think we can work with this

For decades liberals have been saying this absolute garbage. At least they got the GOP to take them at their word


You've got that inverted. We've been over this repeatedly for years. Fixed it for you.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby John Galt » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:44 pm

God you're dense. What part of "decades" don't you understand? Postmodernism was not from conservative thought, conservatives adopted it. Same with debt spending. Jesus Christ conservatives have long railed against the state spending so much. Liberals poopoo it and say that you can't run a country like a household: debt doesn't matter. What do you even expect to happen
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby ToddStarnes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:49 pm

Tbf, when you're the reserve currency debt doesn't matter. We are just lucky that despite our political malaise no other country has surpassed us.

And also cons have a tendency to spend when we shouldnt and not spend when we should

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Kane » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:31 pm

ToddStarnes wrote:Tbf, when you're the reserve currency debt doesn't matter. We are just lucky that despite our political malaise no other country has surpassed us.

And also cons have a tendency to spend when we shouldnt and not spend when we should


To pile onto this further...libs don't like deficits much either. Debt is fine. The measurements of debt are...odd (% of annual GDP) and are often compared to company debt/private debt held as an individual to make a point that bears no resemblance to reality. "A company wouldn't go 100% in debt!" "You don't see me with 100% debt right now!" - that person right there....they have a mortgage that far exceeds 100% of their gross annual income. But it doesn't matter to them...because they're want the point to fit their narrative.

So let's do this John: Liberals are always for more spending and debt is a trivial matter. They're consistent. Conservatives claim to be for fiscal responsibility and certitude when the Dems are in office but then when they get the reigns decide now is a good time for a tax break...because it'll spur growth and wage raises. Deficit be damned. Debt be damned. And actual research on the matter be damned. Again, corporate capital isn't hurting right now. By every conceivable metric they are doing just fine. Profitability. Debt. Capitalization. Offshore holding of profits to avoid tax penalties. Effective tax rate.

But we're going to lower their statutory rate, make corporate tax code a little bit weirder, and essentially make their effective tax rate 10 - 12%? Why?
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