some republicans push carbon tax

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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby spacemonkey » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:05 pm

Spider wrote:
spacemonkey wrote:
Spider wrote:
spacemonkey wrote:If everything went solar, there would be a sun tax, wind power, wind tax. No matter what, there is a possible tax for it. How about a robot tax on automated factories?


Gates has been suggesting that very thing.

Right now the roads are mostly paid for by taxing the fuel. Because roads don't spontaneously spring into existence from magic. But now we've got electric cars that drive around on the roads and contribute nothing. So what do?

The country is mostly paid for by income taxes. If we cut into income taxes by replacing incomes with robots...we quickly find that magic won't make the country function from nothing any more than it will conjure up roads. Particularly when that former laborer is soaking up benefits and not buying the consumer shit that the robot produces in his stead.

So what do?

And please, please, don't say, "Everyone should be innovators!"

I think its called profit at any cost. Humans can do good things but still be naively stupid at the same time. Today, most don't produce, they receive.


That was a non-answer.

The closest thing to an answer is people still ignore finite, and try to operate a world economy like it didn't exist. Even if everyone had a college degree, everyone will not have a job.
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby Spider » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:03 pm

spacemonkey wrote:
Spider wrote:
spacemonkey wrote:
Spider wrote:
spacemonkey wrote:If everything went solar, there would be a sun tax, wind power, wind tax. No matter what, there is a possible tax for it. How about a robot tax on automated factories?


Gates has been suggesting that very thing.

Right now the roads are mostly paid for by taxing the fuel. Because roads don't spontaneously spring into existence from magic. But now we've got electric cars that drive around on the roads and contribute nothing. So what do?

The country is mostly paid for by income taxes. If we cut into income taxes by replacing incomes with robots...we quickly find that magic won't make the country function from nothing any more than it will conjure up roads. Particularly when that former laborer is soaking up benefits and not buying the consumer shit that the robot produces in his stead.

So what do?

And please, please, don't say, "Everyone should be innovators!"

I think its called profit at any cost. Humans can do good things but still be naively stupid at the same time. Today, most don't produce, they receive.


That was a non-answer.

The closest thing to an answer is people still ignore finite, and try to operate a world economy like it didn't exist. Even if everyone had a college degree, everyone will not have a job.


The closest thing to an answer? Just answer. Why struggle so hard to get merely close?

I'm asking you about missing tax revenue as workers (including white collar ones) get replaced with machines and software.
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby John Galt » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:06 am

to be fair to the spaced monkey, he already stated that automated factories ought be taxed. then you said, "hey BILL GATES said something about taxing robots. So what do? SO WHAT DO?"

like, i honestly don't understand what you are asking him to answer, mainly because the question you asked repeatedly is a sentence fragment, "so what do?". i think he wants to tax robots, but i also think this is punitive so that people will hire humans instead rather than tax so we can live like hedonismbot

luddites have, time and time again, said this same nonsense. when this great country was founded by spreading the blood of patriots and tyrants, the population was overwhelming agrarian: roughly 90%. technology has improved this down to around 2%. yet one must ask, are the rest of us not working as the luddites would warn of, or have we found gainful employment doing other things? so too will we find gainful endeavors in our glorious transhuman future. and in these next few decades we can look back to those pioneering times when our forefathers from england rounded up all the undesirables and shipped them off to america, canada, and australia: the asteroid belt awaits, son
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby spacemonkey » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:55 am

Do robots have families and shop at the mall? No, so that part of the economic engine dies. Robots don't buy gas or cars to get to work, so that part of the economic engine dies. Get the picture where I'm going here?
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby a777pilot » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:44 pm

Wind and solar are not, repeat, not the solution to cheap readily available power for all. The answer is thorium nuclear power, but then I guess none of you know the advantages of thorium nuclear power. You see "nuclear" and immediately think bomb.

Do some research.
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby Spider » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 pm

John Galt wrote:to be fair to the spaced monkey, he already stated that automated factories ought be taxed. then you said, "hey BILL GATES said something about taxing robots. So what do? SO WHAT DO?"

like, i honestly don't understand what you are asking him to answer, mainly because the question you asked repeatedly is a sentence fragment, "so what do?". i think he wants to tax robots, but i also think this is punitive so that people will hire humans instead rather than tax so we can live like hedonismbot

luddites have, time and time again, said this same nonsense. when this great country was founded by spreading the blood of patriots and tyrants, the population was overwhelming agrarian: roughly 90%. technology has improved this down to around 2%. yet one must ask, are the rest of us not working as the luddites would warn of, or have we found gainful employment doing other things? so too will we find gainful endeavors in our glorious transhuman future. and in these next few decades we can look back to those pioneering times when our forefathers from england rounded up all the undesirables and shipped them off to america, canada, and australia: the asteroid belt awaits, son


I'd assumed he was was being sarcastic, since he'd literally equated it with taxing the sun lol. Keep up.

Basically, your transhuman future depends on either A: basic living stipend, so we can mostly be dolists, B: Drastic population reduction, or C: A majority of regular vanilla humans scratching out an existence on the other side of the fence while the minority of glorious transhumans enjoy the fruits of that future.

Its the basic spectrum of dystopian nightmares that scifi writers have been using as bread and butter for decades.

The development of human-replacing tech has only served to illustrate the fears of Luddites over time, not undermine them. It's one thing to oppose automation of a textile mill. After all, the former workers can go do something else and get paid. This whole rationale goes out the window, however, when we start butting up against the limits of "doing something else".
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby John Galt » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:03 pm

Spider wrote:
John Galt wrote:to be fair to the spaced monkey, he already stated that automated factories ought be taxed. then you said, "hey BILL GATES said something about taxing robots. So what do? SO WHAT DO?"

like, i honestly don't understand what you are asking him to answer, mainly because the question you asked repeatedly is a sentence fragment, "so what do?". i think he wants to tax robots, but i also think this is punitive so that people will hire humans instead rather than tax so we can live like hedonismbot

luddites have, time and time again, said this same nonsense. when this great country was founded by spreading the blood of patriots and tyrants, the population was overwhelming agrarian: roughly 90%. technology has improved this down to around 2%. yet one must ask, are the rest of us not working as the luddites would warn of, or have we found gainful employment doing other things? so too will we find gainful endeavors in our glorious transhuman future. and in these next few decades we can look back to those pioneering times when our forefathers from england rounded up all the undesirables and shipped them off to america, canada, and australia: the asteroid belt awaits, son


I'd assumed he was was being sarcastic, since he'd literally equated it with taxing the sun lol. Keep up.

Basically, your transhuman future depends on either A: basic living stipend, so we can mostly be dolists, B: Drastic population reduction, or C: A majority of regular vanilla humans scratching out an existence on the other side of the fence while the minority of glorious transhumans enjoy the fruits of that future.

Its the basic spectrum of dystopian nightmares that scifi writers have been using as bread and butter for decades.

The development of human-replacing tech has only served to illustrate the fears of Luddites over time, not undermine them. It's one thing to oppose automation of a textile mill. After all, the former workers can go do something else and get paid. This whole rationale goes out the window, however, when we start butting up against the limits of "doing something else".


no he wasn't saying "tax the sun". what he was suggesting is taxing people for using solar energy, once we have moved off of oil, because we need such to support the roads. he also has been very much against automation, so why would you think he was being sarcastic? he's the protectionist like you and who voted for trump because of that view. Keep up.

here's the thing, spider, you can do something else with your life. luddites like you have time and again been proven wrong: technology destroys a smaller amount of jobs than it creates. while highly skilled workers and sought after workers who could rapidly decipher and encrypt morse code lost their jobs basically overnight after the development of the telephone, they endured. i don't know what it is that such people will do because we're talking about the future and how can i know that, but automation allows you to do whatever it is you want to do by drasically reducing the cost of production. want to be an artist? why not. and also, no, we don't need a "living stipend", товарищ. we could deal with some lebensraum though i suppose. go to the kuniper belt, young man
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby exploited » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:10 pm

John Galt wrote:
Spider wrote:
John Galt wrote:to be fair to the spaced monkey, he already stated that automated factories ought be taxed. then you said, "hey BILL GATES said something about taxing robots. So what do? SO WHAT DO?"

like, i honestly don't understand what you are asking him to answer, mainly because the question you asked repeatedly is a sentence fragment, "so what do?". i think he wants to tax robots, but i also think this is punitive so that people will hire humans instead rather than tax so we can live like hedonismbot

luddites have, time and time again, said this same nonsense. when this great country was founded by spreading the blood of patriots and tyrants, the population was overwhelming agrarian: roughly 90%. technology has improved this down to around 2%. yet one must ask, are the rest of us not working as the luddites would warn of, or have we found gainful employment doing other things? so too will we find gainful endeavors in our glorious transhuman future. and in these next few decades we can look back to those pioneering times when our forefathers from england rounded up all the undesirables and shipped them off to america, canada, and australia: the asteroid belt awaits, son


I'd assumed he was was being sarcastic, since he'd literally equated it with taxing the sun lol. Keep up.

Basically, your transhuman future depends on either A: basic living stipend, so we can mostly be dolists, B: Drastic population reduction, or C: A majority of regular vanilla humans scratching out an existence on the other side of the fence while the minority of glorious transhumans enjoy the fruits of that future.

Its the basic spectrum of dystopian nightmares that scifi writers have been using as bread and butter for decades.

The development of human-replacing tech has only served to illustrate the fears of Luddites over time, not undermine them. It's one thing to oppose automation of a textile mill. After all, the former workers can go do something else and get paid. This whole rationale goes out the window, however, when we start butting up against the limits of "doing something else".


no he wasn't saying "tax the sun". what he was suggesting is taxing people for using solar energy, once we have moved off of oil, because we need such to support the roads. he also has been very much against automation, so why would you think he was being sarcastic? he's the protectionist like you and who voted for trump because of that view. Keep up.

here's the thing, spider, you can do something else with your life. luddites like you have time and again been proven wrong: technology destroys a smaller amount of jobs than it creates. while highly skilled workers and sought after workers who could rapidly decipher and encrypt morse code lost their jobs basically overnight after the development of the telephone, they endured. i don't know what it is that such people will do because we're talking about the future and how can i know that, but automation allows you to do whatever it is you want to do by drasically reducing the cost of production. want to be an artist? why not. and also, no, we don't need a "living stipend", товарищ. we could deal with some lebensraum though i suppose. go to the kuniper belt, young man


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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby spacemonkey » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:23 am

Spider wrote:
John Galt wrote:to be fair to the spaced monkey, he already stated that automated factories ought be taxed. then you said, "hey BILL GATES said something about taxing robots. So what do? SO WHAT DO?"

like, i honestly don't understand what you are asking him to answer, mainly because the question you asked repeatedly is a sentence fragment, "so what do?". i think he wants to tax robots, but i also think this is punitive so that people will hire humans instead rather than tax so we can live like hedonismbot

luddites have, time and time again, said this same nonsense. when this great country was founded by spreading the blood of patriots and tyrants, the population was overwhelming agrarian: roughly 90%. technology has improved this down to around 2%. yet one must ask, are the rest of us not working as the luddites would warn of, or have we found gainful employment doing other things? so too will we find gainful endeavors in our glorious transhuman future. and in these next few decades we can look back to those pioneering times when our forefathers from england rounded up all the undesirables and shipped them off to america, canada, and australia: the asteroid belt awaits, son


I'd assumed he was was being sarcastic, since he'd literally equated it with taxing the sun lol. Keep up.

Basically, your transhuman future depends on either A: basic living stipend, so we can mostly be dolists, B: Drastic population reduction, or C: A majority of regular vanilla humans scratching out an existence on the other side of the fence while the minority of glorious transhumans enjoy the fruits of that future.

Its the basic spectrum of dystopian nightmares that scifi writers have been using as bread and butter for decades.

The development of human-replacing tech has only served to illustrate the fears of Luddites over time, not undermine them. It's one thing to oppose automation of a textile mill. After all, the former workers can go do something else and get paid. This whole rationale goes out the window, however, when we start butting up against the limits of "doing something else".

Actually the response has already started by the creation of massive welfare safety nets. Sometime I think the wars are planned just to cull the population a bit.
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Re: some republicans push carbon tax

Postby Spider » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:42 pm

Simple question galt.

There are 20 jobs. There are 25 job seekers.

What exactly are those 5 spares meant to do in terms of "doing something else with their life"?

This entire mode of thought is instantly flattened by 2nd grade math. This isn't the 19th century. The old examples no longer apply. Yes, you can replace telegraph operators. But what exactly are 100 million assemblers in China meant to do when their jobs evaporate? Scarcity is different, now. Growth is different now. Skill and education ceilings are different now. We have software that creates art, Galt. Software that writes music. Software that writes news articles. Soon the entire transport industry, from cars to trains to seagoing container ships...will be automated. And so on and so forth.

Every time you people point to a past century and espouse the mantra that people can forever just "do something else". Which has worked because there has continued to be new things that require people. This belief in infinite employment springing up from a magical bottomless pit is religion. Our population growth curves have developed to support the trajectory of industrialization and globalization. We won't be able to support population like this as the need for their productivity diminishes. Not unless something gives.

I am not a Luddite. My field requires about 1/100th the manpower it did even in the last century. But I'm not so blinded by ideology that I can't f**k add and subtract. If the final solution to maintaining viability of this requires people heading for the Kuiper Belt...your going to be disappointed.
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