Twitter Wars

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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Spider » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:25 pm

ToddStarnes wrote:I agree with your conclusion - that the current gun culture precludes any meaningful action. That's why I'm so curious what dialogue Winchester thinks could be had.

You too easily let the NRA off the hook. Their constant fear mongering about gun grabs during the Obama years pushed gun sales to unbelievable heights. And its already inconsequential in terms of membership, yet remains one of the most influential lobbies today.


I'm not letting them off the hook. I'm just applying a realistic appraisal of their diminishing membership, funding, and political pull. About 30% of Americans, or about 93 million people, are gun owners. Membership in the NRA is about 4-5 million, based on their membership dues, or less than 5% of gun owners. There are plenty of activists who aren't members but who nod along with them, and probably even a fair number of non-gun owners and non-members who do the same. But still, adding it all up we are left with a landslide majority of gun owners who are like myself, not at all impressed by the NRA (if not openly disgusted by them, as I am) and not members. You can't even blame this on rural rednecks, as they tend to be less financially advantaged and less capable of moving the sales figures as better off urban gun owners, who are probably actually the majority of churn, especially in handguns, (which represent the vast bulk of gun violence) even if less likely to admit it. I personally define rednecks as those with insanely backwards social views, regardless of their geography. There are many millions of them in the cities. I personally am immovably hard left on very nearly every issue except guns (even though I view the second amendment as a personal liberty issue, a fundamentally liberal position), but other social and economic liberals such as myself will be lumped in with rednecks regardless on the basis of gun ownership by itself. Plus, as has been pointed out, rural redneck types are likely to simply hang onto them. Most of my guns are multi-generational heirlooms I've inherited. I haven't actually bought a gun in a decade. No need. Honestly, I think it's been over a year since I've even fired one.

Anyways, I think you are vastly overestimating the NRA. They have thoroughly alienated many millions of gun owners such as myself, have been in decline for years in terms of membership and fundraising, and have become the butt of too many jokes. They are simply the single most visible organization, are vociferous, and are activists. And so they get a completely outsized appraisal, as people seem to have a natural need to pin things on an obvious and visible boogie man. Which isn't new.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Gremlin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:51 pm

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what... in... the... f**k.... #-o
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Spider » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:00 pm

The undead apocalypse is a matter of when, not if.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby fstarcstar » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:05 pm

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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby ToddStarnes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:10 pm

So if I am underestimating the NRA what explains gun control policies with 95% support from Americans being voted down in the legislative branch?

Exactly right- they are a minority yet hugely influential. That's my while point regarding their power.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Spider » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:13 pm

ToddStarnes wrote:So if I am underestimating the NRA what explains gun control policies with 95% support from Americans being voted down in the legislative branch?

Exactly right- they are a minority yet hugely influential. That's my while point regarding their power.


Well, I take issue more with your claim that I (and Winchester, for some reason?) are somehow minions of the NRA. They are our "overlords", yes? As you claimed? :|

Basically, it's politics as usual. It's political suicide for Republicans to vote with Democrats on a gun control measure. Can you even imagine the attack ads they'd face in their home districts? Look what happened in Kentucky, with Roy Moore literally pulling and waving a gun at his own rally as he sailed through to claim a seat from an incumbent Republican.

That's what happens. The GOP is shedding moderates. Why give the voters of their district any excuse?
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby ToddStarnes » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:43 am

Exactly. You'll get killed in primaries if you vote against the NRA's wishes even if the underlying policy is popular and even though the NRA technically has limited membership. It's not a boogey man. It's real.

You and win parrot many NRA stances whether you like it or not you are clearly aligned with them.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Spider » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:17 pm

It's impossible to "parrot" something from someone if you've never heard them say it. I'm getting the feeling you pay ten times more attention to the NRA than I do.

In any case, of course there is overlap. Originally, before they went crazy, the NRA was founded with a lot of basic common sense. Long before my time. My grandfather is a lifelong member, and he says they are completely unrecognizable.

I guess I am "aligned" with the NRA in the same way I am "aligned" with conservative Republicans: In the sense that there is some basic philosophy that is extremely broad and appealing to people who are countrymen. I mean, I'm far more "aligned" with the ACLU than either...and those guys are completely obnoxious.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby exploited » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:21 pm

Impossible to parrot a point you've never heard before, says the guy who describes owning a half-dozen firearms he rarely uses as a personal liberty issue.

You know, at least Winchester doesn't try to make up this kind of rank bullshit.
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Re: Twitter Wars

Postby Kane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:55 pm

This is interesting:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chris-hurs ... inia-seat/

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/35967 ... goodlattes

Alison Parker was shot dead on television in 2015. Her boyfriend just beat a three term incumbent delegate in Virginia and now the Father of Alison Parker is considering a bid for the soon to be vacated Goodlatte's seat.
Stephen Jay Gould wrote:When people learn no tools of judgment and merely follow their hopes, the seeds of political manipulation are sown.
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