Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Spider » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:53 pm

Thor wrote:I believe one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in United States history is the intentional misapplication and misuse of the 14th Amendment to make anchor babies U.S. citizens. It ought to be done away with.


Its not a misapplication or a misuse. The 14th is working as written and as intended. What wasn't intended was that "anchor babies" would even be a necessity.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Medius » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:04 pm

Spider wrote:
Thor wrote:I believe one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in United States history is the intentional misapplication and misuse of the 14th Amendment to make anchor babies U.S. citizens. It ought to be done away with.


Its not a misapplication or a misuse. The 14th is working as written and as intended. What wasn't intended was that "anchor babies" would even be a necessity.


I'm not a fan of automatic citizenship by birth, but Spider is right, it is plainly written. We'll need a constitutional amendment, not a law, to change it. I don't honestly see that as a bad thing as I think we need to take a serious re-think of this whole area before we get reactionary on it. I'm not against having citizens from other countries come here or even work here. I do, however, think there is value in setting some basic standards for citizenship. Like subscribing to universal suffrage, representative government, and supporting basic human rights.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Spider » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:25 pm

At least for now, I'm in "The More the Merrier" mode when it comes to immigration. I'm just not seeing enough of a downside to justify tweaking out over it. So we get flooded with brown people. So what? They're going to be brown Americans. Good enough for me. Its not as though American is defined by any particular ethnicity. Their kids are going to be a vital part of our country going forward. Its the same old immigrant story we've had since Ellis Island, with all the same waving of arms and predictions of doom that we had back then. What we're getting are a lot of hard working, industrious people chasing the same dream our ancestors chased. Yeah, we're getting a nasty crust in the bottom of the barrel along with it, but that's also always been there.

I used to get upset about immigration on the grounds that it was BS for Latin America to use the US as a pressure relief valve for their own domestic failures and social problems. Plus, it pissed me off that people felt somehow entitled to enter a country that doesn't claim them. These things still piss me off. But f**k it.

If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Medius » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:38 pm

Spider wrote:At least for now, I'm in "The More the Merrier" mode when it comes to immigration. I'm just not seeing enough of a downside to justify tweaking out over it. So we get flooded with brown people. So what? They're going to be brown Americans. Good enough for me. Its not as though American is defined by any particular ethnicity. Their kids are going to be a vital part of our country going forward. Its the same old immigrant story we've had since Ellis Island, with all the same waving of arms and predictions of doom that we had back then. What we're getting are a lot of hard working, industrious people chasing the same dream our ancestors chased. Yeah, we're getting a nasty crust in the bottom of the barrel along with it, but that's also always been there.

I used to get upset about immigration on the grounds that it was BS for Latin America to use the US as a pressure relief valve for their own domestic failures and social problems. Plus, it pissed me off that people felt somehow entitled to enter a country that doesn't claim them. These things still piss me off. But f**k it.

If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.


I welcome them to the economy. I do not welcome them to voting for our government. I'd be good with separating off some things for non-citizen votes, but some basic things I'd like to keep to our fundamental core values.

Just, for instance, if millions of Muslims were to start flooding in illegally, I certainly would not be OK with them pushing in Sharia law and undoing hundreds of years worth of women's rights.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Thor » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:07 pm

Spider wrote:If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.

I don't see the "awesome" they're bringing with them. TB? Drugs? Higher crime rates? Disregard for the rule of law (pertaining to illegals)? I would completely be in favor with sealing the border for at least 10 years. It is unethical to have millions of Americans unemployed/underemployed and then be importing in foreigners to compete for jobs with those Americans. We shouldn't have Disney laying off employees while they make them train their imported replacements. Americans neither asked nor voted for 1 million+ legal (with untold illegal) immigrants coming through every year. This is a scheme concocted by elites and Big Business to alter the demographics of the country to change voting patterns and suppress wages. The people behind unlimited immigration are the same idiots who brought us "free" trade. A double whammy against the American worker.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Medius » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:37 pm

Thor wrote:
Spider wrote:If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.

I don't see the "awesome" they're bringing with them. TB? Drugs? Higher crime rates? Disregard for the rule of law (pertaining to illegals)? I would completely be in favor with sealing the border for at least 10 years. It is unethical to have millions of Americans unemployed/underemployed and then be importing in foreigners to compete for jobs with those Americans. We shouldn't have Disney laying off employees while they make them train their imported replacements. Americans neither asked nor voted for 1 million+ legal (with untold illegal) immigrants coming through every year. This is a scheme concocted by elites and Big Business to alter the demographics of the country to change voting patterns and suppress wages. The people behind unlimited immigration are the same idiots who brought us "free" trade. A double whammy against the American worker.


Pretty much none of that is true. I do worry about us voting outside of our core values, but when I say that, I mean "democracy and equality" not "god and country".
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Thor » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:00 pm

Medius wrote:
Thor wrote:
Spider wrote:If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.

I don't see the "awesome" they're bringing with them. TB? Drugs? Higher crime rates? Disregard for the rule of law (pertaining to illegals)? I would completely be in favor with sealing the border for at least 10 years. It is unethical to have millions of Americans unemployed/underemployed and then be importing in foreigners to compete for jobs with those Americans. We shouldn't have Disney laying off employees while they make them train their imported replacements. Americans neither asked nor voted for 1 million+ legal (with untold illegal) immigrants coming through every year. This is a scheme concocted by elites and Big Business to alter the demographics of the country to change voting patterns and suppress wages. The people behind unlimited immigration are the same idiots who brought us "free" trade. A double whammy against the American worker.


Pretty much none of that is true. I do worry about us voting outside of our core values, but when I say that, I mean "democracy and equality" not "god and country".

What's hilarious to me is when libertarians push for open borders. If they think that the people streaming across the border are coming here to vote for the free market, Rothbardian ethics, and the non-aggression principle they are serious deluded (just to be clear I'm not saying you're a libertarian I'm merely pointing out something that amuses me).

Historically speaking neither "democracy" nor "equality" rank high on American values, let alone being "core values." In fact the Founding Fathers loathed democracy more than perhaps any other form of governance aside from monarchy and they clearly did not believe in equality in any literal sense. Democracy ranks amongst the very worst ideas in human history and equality is a lie as evidenced by all evidence in nature and life.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Spider » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:14 pm

Medius wrote:
Spider wrote:At least for now, I'm in "The More the Merrier" mode when it comes to immigration. I'm just not seeing enough of a downside to justify tweaking out over it. So we get flooded with brown people. So what? They're going to be brown Americans. Good enough for me. Its not as though American is defined by any particular ethnicity. Their kids are going to be a vital part of our country going forward. Its the same old immigrant story we've had since Ellis Island, with all the same waving of arms and predictions of doom that we had back then. What we're getting are a lot of hard working, industrious people chasing the same dream our ancestors chased. Yeah, we're getting a nasty crust in the bottom of the barrel along with it, but that's also always been there.

I used to get upset about immigration on the grounds that it was BS for Latin America to use the US as a pressure relief valve for their own domestic failures and social problems. Plus, it pissed me off that people felt somehow entitled to enter a country that doesn't claim them. These things still piss me off. But f**k it.

If, as Medius suggests, we need an amendment to eliminate the problem with people feeling forced to have children (at a time when they can least afford to!) in order to remain in the country, then so be it. But we need to keep the influx coming for now. They're bringing too much awesome with them to turn them away now. We've still got room for people and the growth they bring along.


I welcome them to the economy. I do not welcome them to voting for our government. I'd be good with separating off some things for non-citizen votes, but some basic things I'd like to keep to our fundamental core values.

Just, for instance, if millions of Muslims were to start flooding in illegally, I certainly would not be OK with them pushing in Sharia law and undoing hundreds of years worth of women's rights.


Sharia is absolutely incompatible with everything that makes the United States the United States. So, agree 100% there.

But...when it comes to core values...we have nothing at all to fear from a bunch of famously workaholic, community oriented, Christians from a secular, republican country. There just isn't anything terribly fundamental that we aren't on the same page about already. At least nothing that I can think of.
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Medius » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:25 pm

Spider wrote:Sharia is absolutely incompatible with everything that makes the United States the United States. So, agree 100% there.

But...when it comes to core values...we have nothing at all to fear from a bunch of famously workaholic, community oriented, Christians from a secular, republican country. There just isn't anything terribly fundamental that we aren't on the same page about already. At least nothing that I can think of.


Yeah, I just don't like having a door open that will be so hard to close (amendment) should it become necessary in a hurry. Not to mention, I'd really like to see us find a way to allow talented and hard workers to participate here, without stripping countries of those who would most positively impact them. How does Mexico become a better country if everyone with talent, ambition, and a good work ethic comes to the US and can never, ever, return for fear of not being let back in?
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Re: Should the U.S. pass the Birthright Citizenship Act?

Postby Kane » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:11 pm

Medius wrote:
Spider wrote:Sharia is absolutely incompatible with everything that makes the United States the United States. So, agree 100% there.

But...when it comes to core values...we have nothing at all to fear from a bunch of famously workaholic, community oriented, Christians from a secular, republican country. There just isn't anything terribly fundamental that we aren't on the same page about already. At least nothing that I can think of.


Yeah, I just don't like having a door open that will be so hard to close (amendment) should it become necessary in a hurry. Not to mention, I'd really like to see us find a way to allow talented and hard workers to participate here, without stripping countries of those who would most positively impact them. How does Mexico become a better country if everyone with talent, ambition, and a good work ethic comes to the US and can never, ever, return for fear of not being let back in?


Bud, we're getting day laborers and such coming up through the border. Any successful/academic foreigners typically have little trouble getting into the US if they so desire. The brain drain you speak of, those people can get on a plane with a temporary visa/visitor visa and get here in hours. And then evade.

The real crimp on productivity in Mexico is corruption and political mismanagement. Go further south and it's more of the same.

Bus drivers in El Salvador are ruled by gangs because the government is so weak and feeble against them.
Stephen Jay Gould wrote:When people learn no tools of judgment and merely follow their hopes, the seeds of political manipulation are sown.
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