Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby exploited » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:03 pm

eynon81 wrote:
exploited wrote:For a guy who talks about how we need to face reality, calling your country a democracy where blacks and whites are equal partners is truly insane. It demonstrates a huge degree of cognitive dissonance.

Arguing that slavery doesn't still have massive impacts when black kids can't even get proper nutrition, schooling or equal treatment by the justice system... Well, you're a prime example of the type of white guy that needs to just stfu for awhile.



well race is just one factor...your importance to the nation decreases:
1. the darker the skin
2. the less in the bank account
3. the further one gets from NYC


Also consider that blacks have been systematically and purposefully disenfranchised for generations. Felons cant vote. Blacks are incarcerated in insane numbers, in ways that would never happen to middle class white kids. Medius has utterly failed to grasp just how intentional and evil the treatment of blacks has been.

Black civil society, alternative financial institutions, civil liberties and voting privileges have been systematically attacked for generations, and Medius wants to pretend your government is a democracy with blacks as equal partners. It's a goddamned sick joke.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby eynon81 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:07 pm

exploited wrote:Also consider that blacks have been systematically and purposefully disenfranchised for generations. Felons cant vote. Blacks are incarcerated in insane numbers, in ways that would never happen to middle class white kids. Medius has utterly failed to grasp just how intentional and evil the treatment of blacks has been.

Black civil society, alternative financial institutions, civil liberties and voting privileges have been systematically attacked for generations, and Medius wants to pretend your government is a democracy with blacks as equal partners. It's a goddamned sick joke.



n'yes...only one group's experience really compares (American Indians). the country has been systemically screwing over blacks since before it was a country.


that's why terms like "people of color" and "white privilege" annoy me, especially when being echoed by a Korean chick who grew up in Portland (your experiences are not their experiences). the AA experience in this country has been a particular and distinct kind of suck. I agree we need to address it.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby The Comrade » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:11 pm

Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:i didn't do anything wrong either. my country did.

germany doesn't get absolved of the holocaust because the nazis are all dead. japan doesn't get absolved of the rape of nanking because hirohito is dead.

and yet slavery in america "lol no big deal guys get over it"


Now you aren't even talking about governments. Both of those governments are long gone and dead. So you are just lumping the blame on a, what, nation? Invisible borders?

I don't get how people don't see this as asinine. You are blaming and asking for remorse from ephemeral concepts. The way a group moves on from a bad way of thinking is to create and embrace a new and better way of thinking. You don't do this by carrying around constant guilt of something you had absolutely no moral connection to in any way. Honestly, it is sort of disgusting for anyone to be trading on the pain and suffering of people who went through things people living now could not even fathom.


it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby Medius » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:33 pm

The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby exploited » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:45 pm

Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.


Again with the false dichotomy.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby The Comrade » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:57 pm

Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.


so you're worried if we apologize we'll just stop caring about civil rights and apologizing for systemic racism is actually MORE racist?


what even?
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby Medius » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:07 pm

The Comrade wrote:
Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.


so you're worried if we apologize we'll just stop caring about civil rights and apologizing for systemic racism is actually MORE racist?


what even?


I'm talking about slavery only here, dealing with problems that exist right now are absolutely appropriate. Current government apologize for it's current or recent failures is absolutely appropriate. So civil rights and systematic racism are things we should be dealing with.

I didn't suggest we'd stop anything. I'm pointing out the flaw in the thought process. I don't think apologizing or not apologizing will have any real impact. I think it is a step backwards in an attempt to move forwards.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby Medius » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:09 pm

exploited wrote:
Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.


Again with the false dichotomy.


You are the one seeing the dichotomy. I'm pointing out flawed thinking only. I'm not suggesting we can't do both, just saying that the thought process that makes apologizing have value or be necessary is flawed and backwards. It is the Jesse Jackson to the needed Martin Luther King. MLK wanted to end racism. Jesse wants to leverage it. Both could have their value, but one is objectively better for humankind.
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby exploited » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:30 pm

Do you have any evidence of apologies leading to less action, historically? You seem to want to claim that if we apologize for slavery, less will be done to deal with today's problems. What is the basis of this opinion? What are some historical examples of this happening?
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Re: Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery'

Postby The Comrade » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:49 pm

Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:
Medius wrote:
The Comrade wrote:it's weird how you can't let go of the idea that no one holds you personally responsible or expects you to be guilty.

says a lot about you tbh.


This has nothing to do with me. If someone told me that me apologizing for slavery would make anyone feel good, I wouldn't hesitate. This isn't about how I feel. I'm making my argument around what I think will be the most positive ends. I've already said, I wouldn't oppose an apology. What concerns me is the bad thought processes involved. Not the words. My concern is that we will do the least possible work, which generally is the case, if we focus on the words. The words are meaningless and the only way to give them meaning (since all involved are long dead) is action. And it needs to be action that is understood to be coming from we the people. What are trying to say right now, is that an apology from government is an apology from white people. White people don't own government. This false idea just perpetuates victimization.


so you're worried if we apologize we'll just stop caring about civil rights and apologizing for systemic racism is actually MORE racist?


what even?


I'm talking about slavery only here, dealing with problems that exist right now are absolutely appropriate. Current government apologize for it's current or recent failures is absolutely appropriate. So civil rights and systematic racism are things we should be dealing with.

I didn't suggest we'd stop anything. I'm pointing out the flaw in the thought process. I don't think apologizing or not apologizing will have any real impact. I think it is a step backwards in an attempt to move forwards.


it will have no effect but it's a step backwards for progress?

you are going through some seriously painful mental gymnastics to try and get around your reactionary gut instinct that apologizing for slavery is wrong.
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