Participatory theory

Re: Participatory theory

Postby The Dharma Bum » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:08 am

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Re: Participatory theory

Postby spacemonkey » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:42 am

The Dharma Bum wrote:i'm starting to get pretty good at altering my consciousness without chemicals, i can go right into an altered state at will, given the right conditions.

Yeah, after about ten minutes of world/national news, I go from calm to pissed,lol.
The hardest part of doing nothing is knowing when your done.

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Re: Participatory theory

Postby Professor » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:12 pm

The Dharma Bum wrote:I guess I would say that what I'm working on is to attempt to reintegrate my consciousness back into the cosmic consciousness so I can leave the cycle of existence.

That is the purpose that has unfolded itself for me. But if you want a ferrai or something there's no reason you shouldn't have one.


So, does the Ferrari actually appear in front of me? Can other people confirm that it's there? Or do I just think it's there?

If it's the former, sign me up.

If it's the latter,I do that all the time. I've managed to convince myself that I really am better than other people, I just don't say it much because it makes me seem uppity. :-$ don't tell anyone.
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:13 pm

simply a matter of "adjusting" the consensus into having an experience of you in your ferrari

however that may physically come about is incidental to the process
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby Professor » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:08 pm

The Dharma Bum wrote:simply a matter of "adjusting" the consensus into having an experience of you in your ferrari

however that may physically come about is incidental to the process


So, I'll believe that I went for a ride, while all my friends and family will be like, "Dude, no you didn't. You were sitting here n the couch moaning and drooling for the past 30 minutes."
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby exploited » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:54 pm

For every possible configuration of a quantum wavelength, there exists another universe that is the same in all respects but for that one single difference. So for all practical purposes, there are an infinite amount of universes, one for every collapse that has ever taken place in the history of everything. So there is a universe where you own a Ferrari, where you don't, where the Ferrari is blue, or red, or magneta, with a dent in the roof, without a dent, with a stain on the seat, without a stain, and each universe supports a worldpath that logically links these characteristics with events in the past. For the Ferrari to have a stain on the seat, for instance, requires that somebody spill something on it, which requires a trip to McDonalds (or whatever), which in turn has it's own world histories.

What consciousness does is collapse wavelengths, and what we call our lives is actually our consciousness integrating the creation of whole new universes simply by observing the physical state of the world we are in right now. Past and present isn't "time," it is literally a physical journey. As we go about helplessly collapsing wavelengths, we are creating a set of universes, which are brain is capable of spanning - those universes which are alike have similar worldpaths, they are "closer" to us, which is how we can make reasonable predictions about what is and isn't possible. It all results in "laws" that we typically call the "laws of nature." This is why even though there is a universe for literally every conceivable or even inconceivable reality, our consciousness is only capable of experiencing certain ones - the limitations or boundaries of that experience coincide perfectly with the laws of physics.

So, for instance, there is a universe out there where there is a block of ice sitting, unperturbed, in the middle of a star, and in which Professor exists. But in order for that to be true, for that block of ice to exist, we know that other things would have to exist - somebody to observe the block of ice, a world in which heat doesn't melt ice, a world in which we have the technology to do something like that - in other words, we are blocked from that sort of absurdity by the nature of our consciousness, which filters out possibilities which do not abide by what is possible. This filtering is innate to the human brain, and is also why you wouldn't be able to switch your consciousness to a world in which you had a Ferrari - what else would have to happen to make that true, and how different would it be from your current worldpath?

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Re: Participatory theory

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:15 pm

Professor wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:simply a matter of "adjusting" the consensus into having an experience of you in your ferrari

however that may physically come about is incidental to the process


So, I'll believe that I went for a ride, while all my friends and family will be like, "Dude, no you didn't. You were sitting here n the couch moaning and drooling for the past 30 minutes."


that wouldn't be a consensus

in a consensus reality that held that you were the owner of a ferrari you would literally own a ferrari

everyone present would experience this same reality, as this reality, like all realities, is only a collectively conceived thoughtform created by the culturally influenced interpretation of sense-data gathered by individuals within a group
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby exploited » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:12 am

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20140017222508.shtml

ncorporating the recent discovery of quantum vibrations inside brain neurons, a new assessment of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness presents compelling evidence for the idea that consciousness derives from very fine scale activities inside brain neurons. The new review, by scientific heavyweights Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose, appears in the journal Physics of Life Reviews. Penrose and Hameroff go on to suggest that manipulation of these deep level microtubule vibrations could provide treatments for a range of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions.

The theory under review, known as "orchestrated objective reduction" (Orch OR), was put forward by Penrose and Hameroff in the mid-1990s. It proposes that quantum vibrational computations in microtubules (major components of a cell's structural skeleton) are "orchestrated" (Orch) by synaptic inputs and memory, and terminated by Penrose's "objective reduction" (OR).

Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for such seemingly delicate quantum processes. However, recent research has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, and brain microtubules. In particular, the discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules by a research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay in Japan, goes a long way to corroborating Penrose and Hameroff's original theory. Penrose says his and Hameroff's new paper updates the evidence and clarifies Orch OR quantum bits as helical pathways in microtubule lattices.

"Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?" ask Hameroff and Penrose. "This opens a potential Pandora's Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality."

Hameroff contends that "Orch OR is the most rigorous, comprehensive and successfully-tested theory of consciousness ever put forth," and that from a practical standpoint, "treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions."

Penrose and Hameroff will explore their theories further tomorrow during a session on "Microtubules and the Big Consciousness Debate" at the "Brainstorm Sessions," a public three-day event in Amsterdam. They will also engage skeptics in a debate on the nature of consciousness, while fellow brainbox Bandyopadhyay will demonstrate microtubule vibrations from active neurons playing Indian musical instruments.
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby Professor » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:31 am

exploited wrote:For every possible configuration of a quantum wavelength, there exists another universe that is the same in all respects but for that one single difference. So for all practical purposes, there are an infinite amount of universes, one for every collapse that has ever taken place in the history of everything. So there is a universe where you own a Ferrari, where you don't, where the Ferrari is blue, or red, or magneta, with a dent in the roof, without a dent, with a stain on the seat, without a stain, and each universe supports a worldpath that logically links these characteristics with events in the past. For the Ferrari to have a stain on the seat, for instance, requires that somebody spill something on it, which requires a trip to McDonalds (or whatever), which in turn has it's own world histories.

What consciousness does is collapse wavelengths, and what we call our lives is actually our consciousness integrating the creation of whole new universes simply by observing the physical state of the world we are in right now. Past and present isn't "time," it is literally a physical journey. As we go about helplessly collapsing wavelengths, we are creating a set of universes, which are brain is capable of spanning - those universes which are alike have similar worldpaths, they are "closer" to us, which is how we can make reasonable predictions about what is and isn't possible. It all results in "laws" that we typically call the "laws of nature." This is why even though there is a universe for literally every conceivable or even inconceivable reality, our consciousness is only capable of experiencing certain ones - the limitations or boundaries of that experience coincide perfectly with the laws of physics.

So, for instance, there is a universe out there where there is a block of ice sitting, unperturbed, in the middle of a star, and in which Professor exists. But in order for that to be true, for that block of ice to exist, we know that other things would have to exist - somebody to observe the block of ice, a world in which heat doesn't melt ice, a world in which we have the technology to do something like that - in other words, we are blocked from that sort of absurdity by the nature of our consciousness, which filters out possibilities which do not abide by what is possible. This filtering is innate to the human brain, and is also why you wouldn't be able to switch your consciousness to a world in which you had a Ferrari - what else would have to happen to make that true, and how different would it be from your current worldpath?


That's actually pretty interesting. Frankly, I wanted to make a snarky comment . . . but I can't. Kudos!!

Now, I'm wondering . . . how do a few electrons that travel between certain types of cells in my head (neurons) collapse wavelengths like this?

And, can we jump between universes? Like, there's the universe where I don't have a Ferrari. And, there's one where I do. Can I jump from one to the other? If I do, what happens to the me that was in that Ferrari-having universe? Does he disappear, or is he suddenly thrust into my broke-ass-non-Ferrari-having universe? Seems kind of a dickish thing to do to myself.
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Re: Participatory theory

Postby exploited » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:53 am

Professor wrote:
exploited wrote:For every possible configuration of a quantum wavelength, there exists another universe that is the same in all respects but for that one single difference. So for all practical purposes, there are an infinite amount of universes, one for every collapse that has ever taken place in the history of everything. So there is a universe where you own a Ferrari, where you don't, where the Ferrari is blue, or red, or magneta, with a dent in the roof, without a dent, with a stain on the seat, without a stain, and each universe supports a worldpath that logically links these characteristics with events in the past. For the Ferrari to have a stain on the seat, for instance, requires that somebody spill something on it, which requires a trip to McDonalds (or whatever), which in turn has it's own world histories.

What consciousness does is collapse wavelengths, and what we call our lives is actually our consciousness integrating the creation of whole new universes simply by observing the physical state of the world we are in right now. Past and present isn't "time," it is literally a physical journey. As we go about helplessly collapsing wavelengths, we are creating a set of universes, which are brain is capable of spanning - those universes which are alike have similar worldpaths, they are "closer" to us, which is how we can make reasonable predictions about what is and isn't possible. It all results in "laws" that we typically call the "laws of nature." This is why even though there is a universe for literally every conceivable or even inconceivable reality, our consciousness is only capable of experiencing certain ones - the limitations or boundaries of that experience coincide perfectly with the laws of physics.

So, for instance, there is a universe out there where there is a block of ice sitting, unperturbed, in the middle of a star, and in which Professor exists. But in order for that to be true, for that block of ice to exist, we know that other things would have to exist - somebody to observe the block of ice, a world in which heat doesn't melt ice, a world in which we have the technology to do something like that - in other words, we are blocked from that sort of absurdity by the nature of our consciousness, which filters out possibilities which do not abide by what is possible. This filtering is innate to the human brain, and is also why you wouldn't be able to switch your consciousness to a world in which you had a Ferrari - what else would have to happen to make that true, and how different would it be from your current worldpath?


That's actually pretty interesting. Frankly, I wanted to make a snarky comment . . . but I can't. Kudos!!

Now, I'm wondering . . . how do a few electrons that travel between certain types of cells in my head (neurons) collapse wavelengths like this?

And, can we jump between universes? Like, there's the universe where I don't have a Ferrari. And, there's one where I do. Can I jump from one to the other? If I do, what happens to the me that was in that Ferrari-having universe? Does he disappear, or is he suddenly thrust into my broke-ass-non-Ferrari-having universe? Seems kind of a dickish thing to do to myself.


I don't blame you for wanting to make a snarky comment. It is all pretty theoretical, and there isn't any sort of consensus around this theory. I just think it makes a great deal of sense, and it does have some basis in how we know the brain works. But there is barely any evidence to support it, and won't be until we actually really understand quantum physics... so the short answer to your question is "Beats me." We know that observing phenomena has an impact on it - wave-particle duality - and we know that the brain works on a quantum level. The many worlds interpretation is fairly popular in the scientific community, and it all kind of fits together nicely... but ultimately, we just don't know how this process works, if it does in fact work at all.

I imagine it would be impossible for you to switch between universes. Consider the worldpath: what has to be true for that to happen? You would have to be aware that it is possible, you would have to figure out how to do it, and finally, you'd have to actually do it - all of these changes would set you on a different worldpath than if you had never heard of this theory before. And every decision you make after learning the theory would also put you on another worldpath. So I think that is how the multiverse protects against absurdities - even if it were possible for you to go back and kill your grandfather, for instance, or for your consciousness to start tracking a worldpath with a different characteristic, you would be influencing that worldpath, thus splitting it.
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