social order

social order

Postby The Dharma Bum » Fri May 16, 2014 2:20 am

Premise: The true political conflict is between ordered society and those who have no place within the order, ergo an orderly society is impossible unless there is a place for everyone in society.

This is a thread about philosophy:
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
Image
User avatar
The Dharma Bum
Vice President
 
Posts: 11594
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3285 times
Been thanked: 617 times
Political Leaning: Anarcho Communist

Re: social order

Postby Saz » Fri May 16, 2014 5:55 am

That's not a political conflict at all. Those who can function in ordered society are the clear majority and have never faced a political challenge from those who can't assimilate. In ever developed country we jail, medicate, or leave to die those who can't function among other people. Maybe in the developed world there is more of a conflict, but even there ordered society is the norm and those with no place within the order have little legitimacy. See Boko Haram
Ceterum autem censeo Dylan esse delendam
User avatar
Saz
Governor
 
Posts: 7959
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Airstrip One
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 857 times
Political Leaning: Classic Liberal

Re: social order

Postby The Dharma Bum » Fri May 16, 2014 8:00 am

Modern society is not ordered at all, it's highly unstable by design.

Also we are talking about class conflict, not mentally ill individuals or lumpen

the fact that you look at this subject in this manner is pretty interesting though.
Image
User avatar
The Dharma Bum
Vice President
 
Posts: 11594
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3285 times
Been thanked: 617 times
Political Leaning: Anarcho Communist

Re: social order

Postby Saz » Fri May 16, 2014 8:42 am

The Dharma Bum wrote:Modern society is not ordered at all, it's highly unstable by design.

Also we are talking about class conflict, not mentally ill individuals or lumpen

the fact that you look at this subject in this manner is pretty interesting though.


Modern society is more orderly than any other system any living being has devised (that we know of). It's not perfect but to call it highly unstable is without context.

Class conflict? Psh, take that marxist nonsense out of here.
Ceterum autem censeo Dylan esse delendam
User avatar
Saz
Governor
 
Posts: 7959
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Airstrip One
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 857 times
Political Leaning: Classic Liberal

Re: social order

Postby The Dharma Bum » Fri May 16, 2014 8:51 am

Modern society is more orderly than any other system any living being has devised


despite industrial mechanisation this isn't true and can never be true of any market based system
Image
User avatar
The Dharma Bum
Vice President
 
Posts: 11594
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3285 times
Been thanked: 617 times
Political Leaning: Anarcho Communist

Re: social order

Postby Saz » Fri May 16, 2014 9:16 am

The Dharma Bum wrote:
Modern society is more orderly than any other system any living being has devised


despite industrial mechanisation this isn't true and can never be true of any market based system


The free market has a clear and well defined order to it. The fact that you can even reference a "market base system" is evidence of it's organization and consistency. It's not perfect obviously, as not all humans are rational actors.
Ceterum autem censeo Dylan esse delendam
User avatar
Saz
Governor
 
Posts: 7959
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Airstrip One
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 857 times
Political Leaning: Classic Liberal

Re: social order

Postby The Dharma Bum » Fri May 16, 2014 9:29 am

if it is so orderly why do we find it necessary to imprison such a large percentage of our population?

why is coercion necessary?

why is social alienation so prevalent?

why are outbursts of violence so common?

You make an interesting point. Spontaneous order and self organization is true order, but that is not what we have with market distribution or industrial society

The larger point is that if society is designed for the the needs of people an orderly society can emerge, but if we persist in attempting to transform the human animal into something suitable for industrial production greater coercion and violence will be necessary to create the semblance of order.

And it will ultimately fail.
Image
User avatar
The Dharma Bum
Vice President
 
Posts: 11594
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3285 times
Been thanked: 617 times
Political Leaning: Anarcho Communist

Re: social order

Postby Saz » Fri May 16, 2014 9:42 am

The Dharma Bum wrote:if it is so orderly why do we find it necessary to imprison such a large percentage of our population?

Because they are disorderly people who don't comply with the order the majority has created.

why is coercion necessary?

See above.

why is social alienation so prevalent?

law of large numbers. If only 1/100 people are socially alienated, thats still millions of people in the US alone.

why are outbursts of violence so common?

They really aren't given that we are a species that killed it's way to the top. Again, 1/100 can still lead to a lot of violence but to call it common is without context.

You make an interesting point. Spontaneous order and self organization is true order, but that is not what we have with market distribution or industrial society

Incorrect. Democracy with mass enfranchisement can only be described as self-organization. It's truly the highest form of collective agreement we can reach.

The larger point is that if society is designed for the the needs of people an orderly society can emerge, but if we persist in attempting to transform the human animal into something suitable for industrial production greater coercion and violence will be necessary to create the semblance of order.

This makes no sense. Violence and coercion are necessary for order, because of the anti socials. However, darwinism and cultural assimilation will probably remove much of that in the long run. It's actually amazing how peaceful and orderly society is today compared to just 500 years ago. You argument is bunk because the human animal is inherently competitive, violent, and brutal. This is what allowed us to conquer nature, but now that that task has been completed and we have mastered most of our environment, we want to stamp out certain traits because they are immoral and damaging when turned against our fellow man.

And it will ultimately fail.

Everything fails eventually. That's not a relevant argument.
Ceterum autem censeo Dylan esse delendam
User avatar
Saz
Governor
 
Posts: 7959
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Airstrip One
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 857 times
Political Leaning: Classic Liberal

Re: social order

Postby The Dharma Bum » Fri May 16, 2014 10:15 am

Because they are disorderly people who don't comply with the order the majority has created.


Well, that destroys your point.

Clearly US society is not orderly at all, despite mass efforts to create artificial order

Look, you are wasting my time with this crap. Industrial society is simply not orderly, nor could it function properly if it were. This has already been well established so disputing this reality because of emotional reasons is a waste of time.

Let's get on with the discussion
Image
User avatar
The Dharma Bum
Vice President
 
Posts: 11594
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3285 times
Been thanked: 617 times
Political Leaning: Anarcho Communist

Re: social order

Postby Saz » Fri May 16, 2014 10:22 am

The Dharma Bum wrote:
Because they are disorderly people who don't comply with the order the majority has created.


Well, that destroys your point.

Clearly US society is not orderly at all, despite mass efforts to create artificial order

Look, you are wasting my time with this crap. Industrial society is simply not orderly, nor could it function properly if it were. This has already been well established so disputing this reality because of emotional reasons is a waste of time.

Let's get on with the discussion


You are lost. So if there is a single anti-social in society, society isn't orderly? Society is judged by the lowest common denominator? if we just exterminate the anti-scoails, then would we be a more orderly society? You assume the point you are trying to prove is true from the outset. We are not a perfectly orderly society but to describe modern western society as disorderly strips the word of all meaning.
Ceterum autem censeo Dylan esse delendam
User avatar
Saz
Governor
 
Posts: 7959
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Airstrip One
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 857 times
Political Leaning: Classic Liberal

Next

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron