What do you think produces inequality in society

Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby exploited » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:13 pm

Uh, no.

Me:

Stop talking down your nose and pretending you have evolved past everyone else. It is arrogant and unbecoming. You aren't an enlightened snowflake.

Point is, success in every human endeavour requires social skills. Social skills are not distributed equally and cannot be provided to you by others. Even in a society with perfect material and structural equality, so much will be decided upon the basis of good looks, eloquence and body language that political equality is already hugely undermined. We are not a rational animal, and even a perfectly rational social order cannot correct that.

It is a pipe dream. A worthy one, one that should be worked towards, but just a dream nonetheless.

...


Slavery is not built into our biology. Establishing social hierarchies within a group you identify with is. When the vast majority of our decision-making process is non-rational, which it is, it is impossible to have political equality.

Who is your best friend? Why? Did you analyze your friends, compare their attributes, and decide impartially based on facts, not feelings? Of course not. And yet you would do far more to help that friend than you would a stranger, or even another friend. Only a very rare human behaves otherwise, and most often we don't recognize it until they are dead. The same can be said for sexual attraction - people don't say "her nose is perfectly proportional and her skin suggests good breeding grounds." They don't arrive at attraction rationally - it is there, or it's not, and our conscious mind has little to do with it.

Politics is no different. Political decision-making is no different. A very small fraction of what we support is due to rationality. A very large part of it is just a reflection of our temperament and personality, nothing more. Why else do we so often see smart people supporting stupid things? It is because, like all human relations, most decisions are made subconsciously.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:01 pm

What does that have to do with anything?

Just because people make many decisions subconsciously it doesn't necessarily imply that it would be impossible to consciously choose a system that promotes and sustains political equality.

It's a matter of political will, and nothing more.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:07 pm

Put it this way, is the western civilization one of the most, if not the most, advanced in history because it embraced your concept that increased individual autonomy is detrimental?

Of course not, don't be silly. The opposite is true.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby exploited » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:12 pm

The Dharma Bum wrote:What does that have to do with anything?

Just because people make many decisions subconsciously it doesn't necessarily imply that it would be impossible to consciously choose a system that promotes and sustains political equality.

It's a matter of political will, and nothing more.


We've already discussed this. Well, actually, we discussed a paragraph here and there, typically the one thing you had a conceivable counter for.

If you can't see how people being irrational, and how the majority of communication is subconscious, might impact political equality... I can't help you.

Ever heard people say "I vote for the man, not the party?" This is exactly the tendency I am talking about. Ever met someone with great ideas who you didn't like and didn't trust to implement them fairly? Me too. This is again what I'm talking about. Ever met a person and totally shut yourself off from them just based on their physical appearance and behaviour? Of course, and so does everyone else.

The ability to influence other people is not, repeat, is not given out fairly, impartially or rationally. It has nothing to do with the merits of a given argument. George Bush Jr. had idiotic ideas, but he was elected not once, but twice, and the second election happened after the clear failure of his ideas. Same with Obama. Why? Because people liked them. That's it, that's all.

This is a biological thing that I sincerely doubt can be changed - a bum on a soapbox shouting about the apocalypse will never have the same power as the guy in the business suit with the trained voice and internalized sales techniques. Even as the world burns.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby exploited » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:15 pm

The Dharma Bum wrote:Put it this way, is the western civilization one of the most, if not the most, advanced in history because it embraced your concept that increased individual autonomy is detrimental?

Of course not, don't be silly. The opposite is true.


Haha what? Every major advancement of the past two hundred years has been forced down the majorities throat.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby The Comrade » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:34 pm

exploited wrote:
The Comrade wrote:
exploited wrote:
The Comrade wrote:but you're doing literally the exact same thing as dharma only you prefer a multiplicity of ideas instead of one, but in the end your conglomeration is still a nice, tidy, worldview to fix humanity.


Not really. The world can't be fixed. Perhaps only a part of it, and only for a time, and even then it won't necessarily end up working.



suggesting the world is "broken" which is, and i know you love this direction, a subjective opinion attempting to be made as an objective observation.


I don't think the world is broken, as I don't even know what that implies - what I said is that there is no political ideology, program or course of action that can possibly make every area, in every time, better. What works here and now may not work here and then, or there and then.

By all means, if it makes you stop posting totally useless, nitpicking BS, then yes, you won this point. I concede. I cannot say if the world is broken or not - and you can't say anything about anything ever outside of geometry, since it is subjective.

It's like you only post to drag discussions into high school levels.


as you hurl insults at dharma for disagreeing with you,

if you don't want your arguments validity to be questioned, make arguments that are logically sound.
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby exploited » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:37 pm

The Comrade wrote:
exploited wrote:
The Comrade wrote:
exploited wrote:
The Comrade wrote:but you're doing literally the exact same thing as dharma only you prefer a multiplicity of ideas instead of one, but in the end your conglomeration is still a nice, tidy, worldview to fix humanity.


Not really. The world can't be fixed. Perhaps only a part of it, and only for a time, and even then it won't necessarily end up working.



suggesting the world is "broken" which is, and i know you love this direction, a subjective opinion attempting to be made as an objective observation.


I don't think the world is broken, as I don't even know what that implies - what I said is that there is no political ideology, program or course of action that can possibly make every area, in every time, better. What works here and now may not work here and then, or there and then.

By all means, if it makes you stop posting totally useless, nitpicking BS, then yes, you won this point. I concede. I cannot say if the world is broken or not - and you can't say anything about anything ever outside of geometry, since it is subjective.

It's like you only post to drag discussions into high school levels.


as you hurl insults at dharma for disagreeing with you,

if you don't want your arguments validity to be questioned, make arguments that are logically sound.


Dharma is a big boy, white knight, I'm sure he can handle it.

You just came in here because you wanted to disagree with me, lol. I'm flattered, but don't you have something better to do?
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby The Comrade » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:00 pm

i'm not white knighting for dharma, we just happen to agree often. i'm not going to bother reposting the same argument as him to the same criticisms either. it'd be redundant. but the victim complex is cute. keep it up.

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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby The Dharma Bum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:04 pm

exploited wrote:
The Dharma Bum wrote:What does that have to do with anything?

Just because people make many decisions subconsciously it doesn't necessarily imply that it would be impossible to consciously choose a system that promotes and sustains political equality.

It's a matter of political will, and nothing more.


We've already discussed this. Well, actually, we discussed a paragraph here and there, typically the one thing you had a conceivable counter for.

If you can't see how people being irrational, and how the majority of communication is subconscious, might impact political equality... I can't help you.

Ever heard people say "I vote for the man, not the party?" This is exactly the tendency I am talking about. Ever met someone with great ideas who you didn't like and didn't trust to implement them fairly? Me too. This is again what I'm talking about. Ever met a person and totally shut yourself off from them just based on their physical appearance and behaviour? Of course, and so does everyone else.

The ability to influence other people is not, repeat, is not given out fairly, impartially or rationally. It has nothing to do with the merits of a given argument. George Bush Jr. had idiotic ideas, but he was elected not once, but twice, and the second election happened after the clear failure of his ideas. Same with Obama. Why? Because people liked them. That's it, that's all.

This is a biological thing that I sincerely doubt can be changed - a bum on a soapbox shouting about the apocalypse will never have the same power as the guy in the business suit with the trained voice and internalized sales techniques. Even as the world burns.


Well, I'm a top producing salesman so who would be the bum in this analogy?
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Re: What do you think produces inequality in society

Postby eynon81 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:07 pm

this thread reminds me of life of brian.

splitters.
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