For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby jimmyz » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:08 pm

" I'm old-fashioned. I like two sexes! And another thing. All of a sudden I don't like being married to what is known as a 'new woman.' I want a wife, not a competitor! Competitor! Competitor!" - Spencer Tracy in 'Adam's Rib' (1949)

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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby John Galt » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:26 pm

yeah was pretty awesome

tbf to spacex, they travel at mach 6 or something as opposed to mach 3.4. not to disparage this, this is great, but that's part of why spacex had a harder time with it
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby Spider » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:01 pm

Basically, this thing goes straight up to 100 km...and then falls straight back down. All it has to do is overcome gravity. To orbit something, you put only like 10% of the energy expended into overcoming drag and gravity...and the rest goes into building velocity. This thing doesn't need to build any velocity over ground, since it doesn't actually go anywhere. It doesn't need to worry about doing the other 90% of the job.

I'm trying to figure out what its actually good for, other than giving tourists a couple minutes of simulated zero G before the run out of forward momentum and start falling. You can't launch payloads with it. You can't actually take anyone anywhere...its just a really elaborate carnival ride.

Eh. Its really easy to shit on this, at least compared to actual space launchers. Its still pretty cool.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby exploited » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:23 pm

Spider wrote:Basically, this thing goes straight up to 100 km...and then falls straight back down. All it has to do is overcome gravity. To orbit something, you put only like 10% of the energy expended into overcoming drag and gravity...and the rest goes into building velocity. This thing doesn't need to build any velocity over ground, since it doesn't actually go anywhere. It doesn't need to worry about doing the other 90% of the job.

I'm trying to figure out what its actually good for, other than giving tourists a couple minutes of simulated zero G before the run out of forward momentum and start falling. You can't launch payloads with it. You can't actually take anyone anywhere...its just a really elaborate carnival ride.

Eh. Its really easy to shit on this, at least compared to actual space launchers. Its still pretty cool.


It's obvious that this should be used as a source of funding for space programs.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby jimmyz » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:23 pm

Why crap on any innovation. Tourist travel will help fund real exploration. A drive drive paradigm. I,m not rich enough to afford this ride. I like it none the less.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby Spider » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:08 pm

jimmyz wrote:Why crap on any innovation. Tourist travel will help fund real exploration. A drive drive paradigm. I,m not rich enough to afford this ride. I like it none the less.


The only way it would fund anything is through taxation on the space tourism business, I suppose. Less than 1% of which could actually wind up funding exploration. Really, this and Virgin Galactic are both technological dead ends. Just very brief suborbital hops. They don't drive innovation in actual space launch for delivering payloads and or crews to actual destinations. SpaceX has been doing propulsive landings for years now, but any development in reusable boosters is more than welcome.

What they do accomplish though is inspiring people and generating that little bit more public awareness of something beyond football and reality TV. People watching space tourists post their zero G instagrams is going to be cool...and getting people interested in exploration in even the smallest sense is a victory.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby exploited » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:02 pm

Spider wrote:
jimmyz wrote:Why crap on any innovation. Tourist travel will help fund real exploration. A drive drive paradigm. I,m not rich enough to afford this ride. I like it none the less.


The only way it would fund anything is through taxation on the space tourism business, I suppose. Less than 1% of which could actually wind up funding exploration. Really, this and Virgin Galactic are both technological dead ends. Just very brief suborbital hops. They don't drive innovation in actual space launch for delivering payloads and or crews to actual destinations. SpaceX has been doing propulsive landings for years now, but any development in reusable boosters is more than welcome.

What they do accomplish though is inspiring people and generating that little bit more public awareness of something beyond football and reality TV. People watching space tourists post their zero G instagrams is going to be cool...and getting people interested in exploration in even the smallest sense is a victory.


Spoken like a true engineer.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby jimmyz » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:00 pm

Spider wrote:
jimmyz wrote:Why crap on any innovation. Tourist travel will help fund real exploration. A drive drive paradigm. I,m not rich enough to afford this ride. I like it none the less.


The only way it would fund anything is through taxation on the space tourism business, I suppose. Less than 1% of which could actually wind up funding exploration. Really, this and Virgin Galactic are both technological dead ends. Just very brief suborbital hops. They don't drive innovation in actual space launch for delivering payloads and or crews to actual destinations. SpaceX has been doing propulsive landings for years now, but any development in reusable boosters is more than welcome.

What they do accomplish though is inspiring people and generating that little bit more public awareness of something beyond football and reality TV. People watching space tourists post their zero G instagrams is going to be cool...and getting people interested in exploration in even the smallest sense is a victory.


I'm talking about the tourist profit being funneled into the orbital stuff. They succeeded in landing their booster. That tech could be useful to the big game.
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Re: For Spider and the rest of you space nuts

Postby Spider » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:01 pm

jimmyz wrote:
Spider wrote:
jimmyz wrote:Why crap on any innovation. Tourist travel will help fund real exploration. A drive drive paradigm. I,m not rich enough to afford this ride. I like it none the less.


The only way it would fund anything is through taxation on the space tourism business, I suppose. Less than 1% of which could actually wind up funding exploration. Really, this and Virgin Galactic are both technological dead ends. Just very brief suborbital hops. They don't drive innovation in actual space launch for delivering payloads and or crews to actual destinations. SpaceX has been doing propulsive landings for years now, but any development in reusable boosters is more than welcome.

What they do accomplish though is inspiring people and generating that little bit more public awareness of something beyond football and reality TV. People watching space tourists post their zero G instagrams is going to be cool...and getting people interested in exploration in even the smallest sense is a victory.


I'm talking about the tourist profit being funneled into the orbital stuff. They succeeded in landing their booster. That tech could be useful to the big game.


True. When it comes to Blue Origin what's interesting are their proprietary engine designs. Big staged combustion liquid methane designs, like the one their probably going to wind up selling to ULA are very interesting. Same goes for the crazy throttle-able tap off hydrogen engines, like whats in the New Shepherd.

Gotta hand it to them for developing riskier engines. They are quite a bit more complex than kerosene engines, with far more problematic fuels...so I'm trying to figure out why they went this more expensive route other than "don't copy SpaceX". Kerosene works great...and since its pressurized by the engine turbopumps, it can be used as the working fluid for the entire hydraulic system on the vehicle...so no need for a dedicated hydraulic system. Obviously this won't work with methane or oxygen. That open cycle thing isn't as efficient...but its certainly lighter and more reliable. \

So...staged combustion, closed cycle, and more volatile fuels combined with higher mechanical complexity...ehhh. If they pull it off, they'll be brilliant. If they don't...big f**k mistake.
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