Is Christianity the answer?

Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:44 pm

John Galt wrote:did you just double down and again indicate that having relatively astronomical amounts of crime is indicative of a "functional" prison system?


It's almost like assessing a prison system requires far, far more than simply looking at how much crime there is. You might look at recidivism, for instance - what percentage of prisoners will reoffend?

Not sure if you're aware, but the Scandinavian model produces the least amount of recidivism anywhere in the world.

Similarly, you might look at types of crime instead of just generic crime stats. For instance, is murder a way worse crime than stealing cigarettes? So if a country has 90,000 cases of cigarette stealing, is that 3x as bad as a country with 30,000 murders?

You'd have to adjust for poverty and education levels as well, of course. But no doubt you've done this...

Come on now Galt.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby John Galt » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:46 pm

least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working
Americans learn only from catastrophe and not from experience. -- Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby eynon81 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:53 pm

exploited wrote:
John Galt wrote:did you just double down and again indicate that having relatively astronomical amounts of crime is indicative of a "functional" prison system?


It's almost like assessing a prison system requires far, far more than simply looking at how much crime there is. You might look at recidivism, for instance - what percentage of prisoners will reoffend?

Not sure if you're aware, but the Scandinavian model produces the least amount of recidivism anywhere in the world.

Similarly, you might look at types of crime instead of just generic crime stats. For instance, is murder a way worse crime than stealing cigarettes? So if a country has 90,000 cases of cigarette stealing, is that 3x as bad as a country with 30,000 murders?

Come on now Galt.


I think the homicide rate in the US is more the result of our laws, history, number of hand-guns and black-market structure more than our prison system.

The US prison system varies widely from state to state in terms of how good it is but I think recidivism is often the result of a society stacked against cons in general (hard to find work, stigma), lack of decent health-care (for addicts and mental health issues), racism, a terrible probation supervision system, and thriving subcultures(again due to that black-market issue). The people I see coming back and back are addicts, crazy, or part of the game.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:54 pm

John Galt wrote:least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working


Deterrence never works re: crime.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby eynon81 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:56 pm

exploited wrote:
John Galt wrote:least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working


Deterrence never works re: crime.



mostly yes. can work in white collar situations I think though.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:05 pm

eynon81 wrote:
exploited wrote:
John Galt wrote:least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working


Deterrence never works re: crime.



mostly yes. can work in white collar situations I think though.


You'd think, but a quick Google suggests otherwise.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby eynon81 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:10 pm

exploited wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
exploited wrote:
John Galt wrote:least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working


Deterrence never works re: crime.



mostly yes. can work in white collar situations I think though.


You'd think, but a quick Google suggests otherwise.



well I'll be:
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.111 ... O_CUSTOMER

seems to be some disagreement though:
The authors address the reasons for the emphasis on general deterrence in the study of white collar crime and punishment, and they challenge commonly held beliefs that have led to the exclusion of white collar offenders from policy discussions of deterrence, incapacitation, and rehabilitation. Using a sample of offenders convicted of white collar crime, they show that white collar offenders are often repeat offenders with serious criminal records. The authors contend that white collar offenders may be particularly influenced by criminal justice prosecution and sanctions, and they discuss theoretical issues in punishment of white collar crime and the need for further research on white collar criminal careers.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/ ... ?ID=145153
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:15 pm

eynon81 wrote:
exploited wrote:
eynon81 wrote:
exploited wrote:
John Galt wrote:least amount of recidivism eh? so what, does everyone get a turn at being a criminal in the norselands? because their pison villas aren't encouraging people from ever starting a life of crime so that's clearly not working


Deterrence never works re: crime.



mostly yes. can work in white collar situations I think though.


You'd think, but a quick Google suggests otherwise.



well I'll be:
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.111 ... O_CUSTOMER

seems to be some disagreement though:
The authors address the reasons for the emphasis on general deterrence in the study of white collar crime and punishment, and they challenge commonly held beliefs that have led to the exclusion of white collar offenders from policy discussions of deterrence, incapacitation, and rehabilitation. Using a sample of offenders convicted of white collar crime, they show that white collar offenders are often repeat offenders with serious criminal records. The authors contend that white collar offenders may be particularly influenced by criminal justice prosecution and sanctions, and they discuss theoretical issues in punishment of white collar crime and the need for further research on white collar criminal careers.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/ ... ?ID=145153


I'll actually get into these studies once I'm home from work, and we'll figure it out.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby Medius » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:20 pm

Humorously, I wasn't actually intending my post to be a criticism of the prison system in Iceland. I was just giving my immediate reactions to looking it up. It could be that their prison system isn't a deterrent. It could be that people are continuing to commit more crimes while waiting to actually go to prison. It could be that there is less crime in the US because there are exponentially more prisoners.

If you think I'm defending the US justice system, hell no.
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Re: Is Christianity the answer?

Postby exploited » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:28 pm

Medius wrote:Humorously, I wasn't actually intending my post to be a criticism of the prison system in Iceland. I was just giving my immediate reactions to looking it up. It could be that their prison system isn't a deterrent. It could be that people are continuing to commit more crimes while waiting to actually go to prison. It could be that there is less crime in the US because there are exponentially more prisoners.

If you think I'm defending the US justice system, hell no.


How dare you insult Iceland.
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