Ultra magnum airguns

[Spider]

You've taught nobody in here anything resembling a lesson. Remember that.

Sigh.

Go shoot at deer with pellet guns if you want...but please...nothing bigger. The thought of it really gets me down. There is a moral standard of humane treatment that I think is really important to the sport. Lets think about that before we prioritize the novelty of pellet gun as big game rifle over the decent treatment of game animals.

[Clarino]

[The Prophet]

[Winchester]

Just to clarify, it was Snake on the .308 and I didn't scold him at all, just disagreeing on the minimum necessary for a deer, but I would certainly rather someone err on the high side vs the low side.

Near as I can tell Spider and I are in complete agreement regarding the ethics.

I will respond to more of your post tomorrow when I have more time but...

Regarding crossbow/bow vs projectiles. They kill differently, bows/crossbows kill by hemorrhaging, that's why they have blades to induce as much hemorrhaging as possible. In order to kill with such weapons ethically one must make damn sure the arrow is placed in the heart, lung, liver area.

Firearms kill with shock, the transfer of energy to the vital region and yes also by the physical damage the projectile does to said region.

The air guns as far as I can tell are somewhere in the middle, yes if hit correctly they can cause hemorrhaging, but IMO not nearly as effectively as an arrow/bolt. Nor can one IMO transfer enough to kill energy to kill via shock with certainty. I'm not going to go as far as say they're unethical in all cases but they are so limited by range and power that it's going to take a very, very experience hunter to use said weapon "ethically" and even then there is no room for error.

[The Prophet]

Winchester, Snake made two real blanket remarks that just don't fly.I called him on them both , you addressed one with a difference of opinion. Ok I'll buy that and he agreed with you. Boy that didn't take much did it? . You educated him. He even said people who use less should have the crap beat out them. He can tell that to the 14 year old kid I just watched who got his first buck on Michigan out of doors with a .410 slug.

Caliber has very little if anything at all to do with ethics. Good ethical hunters use every legal rifle and shotgun, bow and pistol in the book to take deer. You and I Know perfectly well that all it takes is the right load and right bullet at the right distance for most every center fire rifle made excepting a few. I WOULD NOT USE ANYTHING BELOW .22 CALIBER. Many guys do real well with the .243 and the .223 but you have to use good expanding bullets in 60 /62 grain if you want that Shocking power . I think the worst round that is legal is #4 buckshot out of a 20 or 16 gauge shotgun. It wont even go through a 1 inch deck board at 30 yards. I tried some in my 870 and that stuff is weak. Now the 5/8th ounce slugs do just fine but again an ethical hunter will not use them out any farther then big bore air rifle. The 12 gauge gets it done pretty well out to 100 yards and with the right load or sabot(44) even 200 yards. Rifled barrels really stepped up shotguns for deer in the last two decades. And like I said, in southern Michigan Center fire rifle are not allowed for deer hunting.

I think if you all shot one of these new Quackenbush rifles all of you would all be surprised. I shot the .357 and it pops pretty nice. But at 600 bucks and a waiting list? I get the same thing and then some with a rifled 24 to 26 inch barrel for my 870 20 gauge. For me Ethics starts with hunter safety and moves to hunter awareness. Then it moves to the hunter perfecting his shooting skills. Professionals practice until they can NOT get it wrong. Amateurs practice until they get it right. An ethical hunter practices until he is sure he can make that shot or he DOESNT TAKE THE SHOT. Bow hunting taught me that real fast. I like Your passion Snake so DONT get get your self in a wad. I would rather know a man who valued the game we hunt to extremes then one who just flings lead at everything that moves. I think you should shoot with more people and get to know some of other calibers and types of weapons out there. My last rifle is going to be a single shot Serbu.50 cal. bmg and NO Im not going to hunt with it. I just want one, and I can have one. At my age its the little things that make me happy and that little old .50 is going to be one great time .

[Mathurin]

[The Prophet]

In Michigan an air rifle and Muzzle loader are NOT considered to be modern firearms. In my state there is no background check on Air rifles or muzzle loaders so a man with Felony record can purchase one over the counter. The only rifle banned in Michigan from hunting deer is the .22 rimfire. So a Felon can hunt deer in Michigan legally with a Bow,muzzle loader or Modern Air rifle. I like this law as it allows many young men who made stupid mistakes with young girl friends to hunt. I think its bad legislation that keeps soft offenders like the romeo and Juliet lovers from owning and using firearms. Violent crime is one thing being in love is another. I have a good friend in this situation. For him these Quackenbush air rifles allow him back in the woods. I am sure we will see even more improvements to the velocity and accuracy of these air rifles and Im also sure some Liberal is going to start shouting from the roof tops that they should be considered illegal for felons to own. For now here in Michigan they are NOT considered a fire arm.

[The Dharma Bum]

I wouldn't mind having one. I had a Sheridan air rifle growing up and it was nice rifle for squirrel/rabbit hunting and such. The Quackenbush is a little pricey though.

[dontworrybehappy]

Well Darma, just like with anything else, you get what you pay for. D. Quackenbush makes these rifles by hand, by himself. 600 is a VERY reasonable price when there are 3K dollar production air rifles out there. These are not the most powerful, they are usually the most accurate or the ultimate in quality (think....the Bentley of air rifles). My airgun is a .25 that I paid 450 for because it had a few cosmetic flaws, it sells for 600 today. Like I stated already, I dispatched a 60lb beaver at 35 yards instantly. I've killed several beaver with it at various distances. None got away. And unlike a firearm, I can turn down the power from full power to so little the pellet won't leave the barrel, so I can tailor it to the game I'm hunting. No need for 80+ ft lb energy shots (that use more air) when hunting ground squirrel or rabbits. Turning it down to half power is plenty for them. Hunting a larger animal such as a raccoon, opossum, beaver, nutria etc? Crank it up! Try to do THAT with a firearm!

Winchester speaks of not having margin for error with airguns. Well, once proficient with one, you don't need to worry about that. A modern airgun, in the right hands, can shoot sub-dime sized groups out to 50 yards +. These are under ideal conditions, but it shows the accuracy of modern air rifles. Even my old Benjamin .22 will consistently knock standing quarters off of a 2x4 at 20 yards. And that gun is 60+ years old. I wouldn't hunt game larger than a ground squirrel with it, however.

These modern air rifles have tremendous knock down power in close. But the beauty of an airgun is that out much past 100 yards they quickly lose power. Missing a deer with an airgun is basically zero risk to anyone behind it. Missing with a .270 can kill hundreds and hundreds of yards past the target, out to a half mile +. Nobody is going to attempt to kill a large animal with an airgun past 50 yards. Out past 30 is honestly pushing it unless the conditions are perfect. That shot on that beaver was at the end of my comfort range, and he died instantly, rolling motionless into the water and floating there until he was eaten by turtles. (he was up on an embankment). Obviously my gun is dangerous out past that distance. I know at 20 yards it almost shot through a 2x4, blowing a huge chunk of wood out of the back and deforming the projectile so badly it didn't even resemble a pellet.

It's really quite sad how ignorant some people are, hopefully until they get some first hand experience from these compressed air monsters. When an airgun can shoot through a cinder block, that is no longer a "pellet rifle." That is a hunting weapon.

[Clarino]